455 Comments

Vegans, please stop promoting Gary Yourofsky

It is unfortunate that a great many vegans are promoting Gary Yourofsky as some sort of hero for the animals. This violent, angry man spouts off regularly about what he’d like to do or see done to all the “evil” animal exploiters.

These “evil” people are his non-vegan friends and family, and yours, and mine. Is it terrible that so many people are ignorant and continue to buy into speciesism and exploit animals? Yes, it is. Do these people deserve the violence that Mr. Yourofsky wishes upon them? No, they damn well don’t. Do you really want your mom or dad to suffer the things that Mr. Yourofsky wishes on non-vegans? (And he’s very creative in his wishes—-in one interview, Yourofsky talks about wanting to cut off a man’s genitals and feed them to him, then stick skewers in the man’s eyeballs and drag him off somewhere—the level of detail in this torture fantasy is disturbing.)

I’m fairly certain that Mr. Yourofsky himself was not born vegan. Now that he is, though, he feels superior to anyone who isn’t and wants them to suffer as non-human animals suffer. I understand his frustration with the ongoing non-human animal holocaust, but wishing violence on other people is not the answer. Violence is the problem; it’s not the solution to the problem. Education is the solution—creative, NON-VIOLENT vegan education. Contrary to what Mr. Yourofsky seems to believe, most people actually do care about non-human animals. They are just ignorant to the reality of what they are participating in and need to know the truth. They don’t need to be “anally raped”, as Mr. Yourofsky claims. They just need to understand that if they believe non-human animals matter morally (which most people already believe) then it can never be okay to use them for any reason.

It’s awfully difficult to convey that simple message when you’re shrouding it in pure, unadulterated rage. Rational, reasonable people are not going to respond well to the things Mr. Yourofsky says because he comes across as an utter lunatic. He is the stereotypical militant, aggressive and angry “animal rights person” that non-vegans despise.

When I became vegan, I didn’t do so because some angry white man was in my face screaming at me that I deserved to be raped, tortured and killed for being a non-vegan. What actually happened was that I was fortunate enough to stumble upon the Vegan Freaks forums (which were moderated by Bob and Jenna Torres) when they still existed. The straightforward and reasonable arguments for veganism and animal rights that were presented there grabbed me by the intellect and would not let go. I didn’t participate much at first—-I just kind of read everything and took it all in, and it all made perfect sense. In other words, non-violent vegan education made me choose to be vegan. And I didn’t bother with vegetarianism first—-I went straight to veganism, immediately. No “baby step” BS for this abolitionist! Such was the power of the Vegan Freak forums.

You can see it happening everywhere—-vegans talking to others about veganism, being clear about what veganism is, and showing others how they already have a vegan mindset is effective advocacy. Is it instant? Not always. But in a world where 99% of the population is not vegan, I’m not sure how any form of advocacy could produce instant results. What I am sure of is that people can change once they understand that they aren’t actually living according to their own beliefs. But they won’t change if some angry lunatic is shouting at them and telling them they deserve torture and death. In fact, they’d do everything they could to not change, to not be anything remotely like Mr. Yourofsky. I can’t blame them.

Veganism is about non-violence. Despite what Mr. Yourofsky seems to believe, violence cannot be eradicated by heaping on more violence. How can we ask others to stop violence toward non-human animals when we are threatening others with violence or wishing it upon them? The answer is simple: we can’t.

Vegans, we need to STOP promoting Gary Youforsky as some kind of vegan hero. We need to silence this man and remove him from the animal rights movement before he does any more damage. His attention-seeking, violence-promoting, angry-white-man tactics are so incredibly damaging to the animal rights movement. Every good point he makes about veganism (and he does make a few) is completely negated by the vitriol and violence he continuously spouts, and his violent sexism makes animal advocacy an unsafe space for women activists.

Please, for the sake of the non-human animals we are trying to help, let’s make Gary Yourofsky go away.

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455 comments on “Vegans, please stop promoting Gary Yourofsky

  1. Allow me to ramble.

    I was actually inspired to become vegan by Mr. Yourofsky, in spite of his approach. I am not offended by his approach. I think it petty of you wanting to dismiss him from the cause. From my experience dealing with vegans, Gary seems the least hypocritical of them. Why must you refer to Yourofsky as an “angry white man”? (Please don’t tell me, “because he is.”) Also, I think most people care about their preferred pets and enjoy eating bovine burgers. People believe it is appropriate to kill duck or lamb for a dog or salmon for a cat. Yes, I realize self-righteous vegans impose a vegan-style diet on their preferred pets. I find this practice and the practice of animal ownership rather arrogant and unbecoming of our species, but, hey, I get it. “We love animals,” so the saying goes. You know, I don’t love animals, but it doesn’t mean I go out of my way to harm them. I prefer to leave them alone. I prefer to do the least amount of harm to the fauna and flora of this planet. I endorse a steady-state economy. I endorse human population control. I don’t endorse the institution of pet ownership. Yes, I know, they aren’t pets, they’re family members. Well, I don’t rescue canines and I don’t adopt them. The way I see it, there is ecological harm and death to other animals because of our misguided devotion to primarily two species, the canine and the feline.

    • Mr. Yourofsky says many worthwhile things, as I noted. However, he couches it all in such vitriol that it’s hard for many to feel inspired by him. Some will, of course. Many won’t. Many will be turned away by his violence. I am, and I know of many, many others who are as well. Those who ARE inspired by him are often as angry and violent as he is, and that is just shameful for a movement that should be predicated upon peace.

      I’m not sure why you ask me why I refer to him as an angry white man but then tell me not to say, “because he is”. He is. Not sure what else to say there, and as a woman, I’m very aware of angry white men. I am certain that people of colour are too. Angry white men are off-putting to many of us and we are tired of hearing these guys’ rhetoric.

      I’m not sure why you went on so much about pets. I’m against the domestication of other sentient beings, too, and think that any and all breeding of “domesticated” animals must stop. However, we have a moral obligation to those who exist right now. They are victims, and they need us to step up and offer them the best lives we can. Any Abolitionist vegan who knows anything is against the idea of pet ownership, but you know what else we are against? Killing those innocents for no valid reason at all. So I am not sure why you think we don’t owe it to them to take care of them, but whatever.

      Gary Yourofsky often yammers on about how undomesticated animals–like crocodiles–are not obligate carnivores and should be vegan. Or something. I never quite understand what the hell that guy’s point is, but it seems to me like he’s not even focusing on getting humans to be vegan–now he wants crocodiles and other “wild” animals to be vegan too! He seems to be angry that some animals kill other animals for food, which makes exactly zero sense to me. We are not here to judge and police other species. We are here to deal with and fix our own. I think Gary Yourofsky (Youforsky? Who knows) really needs to just focus on humans and stop worrying about what other species are doing. It’s just…….weird that he even thinks that way.

      It’s really sad and unfortunate that you don’t rescue or adopt refugees of any species. We have a moral obligation to do so. Letting them be killed in shelters is not a vegan thing to do. I really hope that you change your attitude about that–we created the “pet” problem and we are the ones who need to fix it, not by killing them but by fulfilling our moral obligation to them and also advocating to stop all breeding of these beings.

      Thanks for stopping by to ramble. Have a great day!

      • “Those who ARE inspired by him are often as angry and violent as he is”. I think that is very true. I love animals in the sense that I can set them free, I don’t need to own them, even though I always have the impulse to adopt or have a bet, but I realize that is not necessary, and most likely childhood conditioning. My pets did not have a happy life, we weren’t able to take care of them properly, and they were abused. I am happy to help animals get on their own way so they can live their own life, but keeping a pet is emotionally enslaving a creature with food, housing, bla bla. We subject animals to slavery and torture. What kind of a life is that?

        Since we are not true carnivores or omnivores, we have to confine and slaughter animals with tools. This should be stopped. The unnatural breeding should be stopped. Huge problem. Over population over certain species is dominating all the others, INSTEAD OF HAVING NATURAL SELECTION, WE HAVE MAN SELECTION.

      • Rose, if you don’t adopt an unwanted animal, that animal could be killed for want of a home. We have a moral obligation to adopt unwanted animals and do the best we can by them. I have three rescue dogs and it’s not ideal that they are at home all day while I work, and you are right–I dictate every aspect of their lives to them, which effectively makes them slaves. And that is a fantastic argument for ceasing all breeding of these animals. But it’s not a good argument for not adopting them, when the alternative for them is often death.

      • About your second paragraph: you sound very prejudiced and bigoted towards men/and or whites. There are many women who wish death and harm upon men and will say things about cutting a man’s genitals off. There are women who publicly put out messages on twitter such as #killallmen and #killallwhitecismen. The women on The View made a joke about a year ago about cutting a man’s penis off and they were all laughing. katherine Heigel made a skit about castrating men. There was a hallmark card
        joking about a wife choking her husband. Imagine the outrage if that was in reverse?

        Many black people say racist things and violent things towards white people all the time, talking about kill all white people and even their children too, right in public, as a white woman passes by with her baby in a stroller. Even though that man (yes, this was a real life event) was threatening violence in public, no police went after him, but if a white person did that, say, a neo nazi or something, he would have the cops all over him.

        Before you speak of “angry white men” and make generalizations, you might want to look at the group/groups you belong to, and maybe criticize them for a change. Maybe so many white men are so angry because they are tired of the double standards from groups such as women and blacks. Maybe they are tired of the constant criticisms and insults where it’s okay for blacks/women to say those horrible violent, angry things, but not okay for the “angry white men”.

        Yes, I get it. Women and blacks have been oppressed by white men,but that’s in the past. They have all the same rights as “angry white men” do in current times. I woman, aback person, anything other then an “angry white man” could become anything they want.As for the wage gap, there is no wage gap. People look at “men make this much money, women make less, so the “logical” conclusion is that it’s institutionalized misogyny,the patriarchy, but that’s as far from the truth as possible. A BLACK FEMALE ECONOMIST from STAMFORD UNIVERSITY has shown through analysis that the reason women get paid less is not because of prejudice, but because they simply work less hours, take more time off, men are seven times more likely to ask for a raise, and men tend to pick fields in which people tend to get paid more for working those fields. The only people women should feel victimized by is…..women.

        It’s a woman’s limiting beliefs that she must be a victim of the patriarchy that holds her back, not any man. Sure, there might be INDIVIDUAL employers who might be sexist, but there is no law saying that a woman has to get less money for the same job and hours as a man, so there is NO PATRIARCHY!

        Any way, I can ramble on about this on and on,and am starting to stray onto similar, but different tangents, for this is an interesting subject for me, but if anything, the angry people ironically and hypocritically tend to be women and or black people. They are the ones tending to make open threats of violence towards white men, a sort of, “you did it to us in the past, so now we get to do it to you!” kind of mentality.

        Have you ever grown up in the Bronx as a white person? I have. They would call me white boy five hundred times day, eight hours a day, five days a week, nine months a year, for my entire school career, when I did nothing to those people. I would hear them say white boy and white girl all the time, even when the teachers were there, and they wouldn’t even do anything.

        There was a white guy in my high school who called a teacher nigger. A black, female student whom the insult wasn’t even directed toward physically assaulted the guy. He was suspended, and we had a school meeting to see if we should even bring him back. The same girl who assaulted him, stood up and said to the crowd that she would never say anything racist like that, yet literally every morning on the way to school, she would say white boy this, and white girl that, and on the way home. There was literally never a day in which i never heard her say racist statements towards whites. Why was she not suspended? Why were any of the other black kids that would say those things all the time not suspended? Why was it okay for her to physically assault him over the freedom of speech, even though it was wrong of him to say that to the teacher? Don’t you think physically assaulting someone is far worse then insulting someone with words? Angry white man, more like angry black woman! Sure, I can understand why she would be upset, but it doesn’t make it right to physically assault someone over words.

        Back to the topic of females, why is it okay for females to insult the living shit out of a man, yet he can’t even stand up for himself? Why does a man have to pay for the first date and/or any dates, if the woman is fifty percent of the date, and willing to go on the date? Why is it okay for the media, citcoms, movies, etc. to insult a man’s appearance and body, such as balding, weight, penis size, call him ugly, to be treated as thing rather then a human being with feelings, etc. but if a man does that to a woman, they make a news story about it saying how bad it is? Why is it okay for women to make sickeningly violent jokes about cutting off a man’s genitals, but not the other way around?

        I thought all people were equal? What’s equal about all of that? What is moral about all of that? Angry white man? More like angry, hypocritical, prejudiced blacks and/or women! And you wonder why we’re angry. Maybe if you lived in the “angry white man’s” shoes, you’d understand.

        I get the feeling that none of this will probably go through to you, though, because if you are the kind of prejudiced person to have to specify that Gary is an “angry white man”, rather then an individual person, as if him being a male or white has anything to do with how he acts, you’ll just deny all the clear to see, self evident, logical points I made.

        It’s obvious to see that you are not to different from Gary, being vitriolic and all. The only difference is he is more open about it, as you are more secretive about it, but your original comment, and your defense of your original comment show the little hints of rage within you, like the rest of the iceberg underneath the surface. You’re nothing but an angry, hypocritical, prejudiced, woman. The irony…

      • …….seriously, bro? There is no such thing as reverse racism or reverse discrimination. Thanks for stopping by to whine though–I love to drink up angry white man tears. LOL bro, bye bye.

      • OMG I made the mistake of reviewing all these older comments, and I cannot BELIEVE you said this about white men’s oppression of every other group: Yes, I get it. Women and blacks have been oppressed by white men,but that’s in the past

        “that’s in the past”. “THAT’S IN THE PAST”. ARE YOU EVEN SERIOUS?! It is so very, very sad that you are. You ARE serious. You really can’t see all the ways in which white, cis-gendered, straight, able-bodied men are, to this DAY, oppressors?

        You are so much a part of the problem that I can’t even.

        …”there is NO PATRIARCHY”. Again, are you KIDDING me?? There most certainly IS a PATRIARCHY. I am not going to get into this on this blog, because I’m just not but dude, you really, really, seriously, honestly need to educate yourself. Hold back your man-tears for a moment and read something other than MRA propaganda.

        I have rage? How on earth do you figure that? I am not the one writing massive missives about how hard poor little white men have it while they rule the fucking world. Just….oh my god no. You are just absurd.

      • I’m not against the domestication of species that domesticate each other. I think dogs and cats exist as domesticated species because we both provide advantages for each other. Dogs are very social and prefer being around humans versus other dogs. Both species are domesticated because humans created an easy food supply. For dogs it was the food we threw out uneaten and for cats it was all the mice. Both species have excelled by living as close to humans as possible, in a sense we have coevolved.
        But other “farm” animals are slaves to humans and should be left alone wild.

      • That’s great, except that in “domesticating” them we make them slaves. They rely on us for everything, and we even dictate where and when they pee. They can “live close to us” without us owning them. Magpies do, and we don’t own them. Domestication is a very bad thing for any species of non-human and it all needs to be abolished.

        Also, just look in any given animal shelter to see how they’ve “benefited” from being humans’ playthings.

      • “that domesticate each other”. What does that even mean? Dogs and cats have not domesticated humans–it’s the other way around, and it only benefits humans, not the animals who are domesticated. They just suffer.

      • Dogs have learned to live around humans because there is an easy source of food and the friendlier the dog the closer they got to humans and the more abundant the food. With dogs living around humans, humans learned to love animals and also there where less small animals that took human food. So humans and dogs have domesticated each other and both gain from the relationship of living in close proximity. May want to read the book Animals Make Us Human by Temple Grandin.

      • I refuse to read anything by Temple Grandin, the woman who claims to have made slaughterhouses more “humane”. Humans and dogs did not “domesticate each other”. Humans saw a way to exploit another species of animal, and dogs do not gain from it in any way. Look at what we have done to dogs and cats and other animals by selectively breeding them for traits we find attractive or useful, that are of no benefit to the dog or cat! These new “breeds” are so far removed from anything resembling a non-domesticated canine that it’s actually heart-breaking. Please don’t lecture me on how dogs have benefited from being around humans, because they have not. Not in any way at all.

        Thanks.

      • Gary has his own style and you have no right to ask for him to be banned. And for the record, I don’t think he promotes violence at all. He is very adamant and very passionate and defends vegan cause at his best. He does a pretty good job giving lectures for free to spread the word. Are you bother because of what he said in one interview? I cannot understan why people make such a big fuzz about that. He was making a point about what animals suffer by talking about that same things done to humans. And everyone finds that shocking because it is shocking, but what is really an abomination is that those things are done to animals. But everyone likes to miss the point and put the center of “his wishes”. Many have felt inspired by Gary, many have not. He does what he does and you should concentrate in your own style and stop worrying about what Gary says or not says. He speaks the truth and he is does not make it relative. He is not afraid of not being liked. I shut up all the time because I don’t want to fight with my friends and family, but in my mind I think the same way as Gary, and I respect very much that he has the courage to speak it. If you want a softer speech because you think is more effective, go on! Go create your own speech! But don’t try to shut Gary up just because you don’t like the way he speaks (because I bet you do agree on what he says). Gary did not kill anyone, so don’t talk like he did. Speaking about something is not the same as doing it. And he does focus on human behaviour. And if you really think that Gary said carnivore animals should go vegan… you really did not understan a word. Your critics does not make any sense. I have seen a lot of conferences and I don’t really know how come you arrived to such ridicuouls conclusions. You have totally missed the point and worse, did not even understand it, and twisted it completely.

      • I am not asking him to be “banned”, whatever that means. What I am saying is that he should not be spouting violence, and I really don’t think that is an unreasonable request. He needs to manage his anger in appropriate ways. I have not missed any points at all, but you do you. Keep on worshipping him if it makes you feel good, but I refuse to listen to someone who spouts anger and vitriol and violence in what should be a peaceful movement. Bye now.

    • The truth hurts!

      • There are other ways of telling non-vegans the truth than screaming, yelling, throwing chairs and threatening violence (and wishing rape on people). Gary Y is not helpful to the animal rights movement.

      • Wow talk about a bunch of brain dead urban animal rights wackjobs

      • Aww. Aren’t you just so clever with that comment.

      • so true!I get that his approach may not seem pleasant to most people,but I can feel how frustrated one can get when stating the obvious and still has to prove it…Believe it or not world does not change without people like him…Slavery.Women rights,Homosexual rights…It’s easy to say:”Hey.why are you so angry…just be calm…you can say what you want with kindness”,but what if people (in this case meat-eaters) try to ignore the obvious…how would the writer of this article felt if he/she said racism is bad and wrong when it’s so obvious and still there were people who acted like it’s no big deal(like they do,still!!!) ? he is entitled to get angry sometimes….Truth really hurts.

      • Thanks for commenting. I get that he’s angry. I am angry too. Most vegans are. But you are creating a false dichotomy here. There are not only two choices: tell people non-vegans deserve to be raped and tortured or else just be calm and kind. Those are NOT the only two options! We can be angry and still talk to people in ways that don’t threaten them, ffs. As I have said here a hundred times already, GARY Y WAS NOT BORN VEGAN. But somehow, some way, he became vegan, and I sincerely doubt that he became vegan because some psycho was telling him that unless he did, he deserved to be raped and tortured! FFS, these non-vegans Gary Y wants to torture and kill are your friends and family, and mine! Please, for the love of all things vegan, STOP DEFENDING GARY Y AND HIS HORRIBLE, VIOLENT RHETORIC!!!!!

      • Rubbish. The truth only hurts if you are not man enough to accept it. And the pain comes not from hearing the truth, but from within the person because they feel the need to fight what they are hearing. And that applies to omnivores accepting some of the vegan arguments as well as vegans accepting some of the omnivores arguments. Both have some empirical truths in what they believe. We are arrogant if we think that we are the only ones who know the truth. The extremes of arrogance leads to extremism, and extremism leads to fanaticism, and Gary Yourofsky is a supreme example of an extreme fanatic.

        The Joyless Vegan is 100% correct here. Whilst a fanatic will always win some followers, usually those who are appraching fanaticism themselves. The huge majority of the Human race are in the middle of the bell curve, and will not tolerate or listen to extremist views. This, by definition is why extremists remain on the outside of society, and can only gain notoriety through violent speech or actions.

        This world is not black and white.

        If you want to be vegan….fine. Be it. If you want to be omnivore….. fine. Do what satisfies your own morals. There is no intrinsic morality, and no one has the right to impose their morals on others. Either way ALL animals will keep dying regardless, and most of them will die suffering. It is the way of nature and we don’t escape it either. We may save some animals in our lifetime, it may even makes us feel good about ourselves. But in the end this can only be a selfish view as it changes nothing. Another animal is born, and another animal will die.

        For 4 billion years all life has evolved together, to live and die and feed off each other in the wondrous cycle that is life and death. We might save the suffering of one animal, but the suffering HAS to continue. And that is the truth

      • “This world is not black and white.” No, it is not always black and white–that’s true. But when it comes to harming animals for no reason, it damn well is black and white, intrinsic, 100%. It is WRONG.

        No, we cannot do what ‘satisfies our own morals’. Unless doing so does not harm others. It’s not “the way of nature” to bring billions of sentient beings into existence for the sole purpose of killing them WHEN WE HAVE NO NEED WHATSOEVER TO DO SO. It’s not a “wondrous cycle”. It’s exploitation, it’s harm, it’s needless killing. It’s selfish, destructive and completely unnecessary.

        The suffering DOES NOT HAVE TO CONTINUE. What does that even mean?

        No, you know what? I don’t want a response from you. You are exactly what is wrong with this world.

        Have a great day.

      • Reponse to Heather in addition to JV’s reply:

        > The huge majority of the Human race are in the middle of the bell curve, and will not tolerate or listen to extremist views. This, by definition is why extremists remain on the outside of society

        You present a static rather than a dynamic world view here. When it comes to respecting animals, this is an interesting fact which shows that your statement is not always true: Tens of (or thousands) years ago humans who lived a vegetarian life (no meat) were considered extremist. In these days, this lifestyle has arrived somewhere in the middle of the society. Nowadays, only extremists harass other people only because they are vegetarian. The situation is reverted now.

        > Either way ALL animals will keep dying regardless, and most of them will die suffering.

        With this kind of argumentation you could also say, every human will die some day and making an effort to build a good society is worthless. This leads to barbarism.

        > Another animal is born, and another animal will die.

        If you look at reality, this statement is pure and utter cynicism. It is not some abstract circle of life but _us humans_ who make these animals been born only to kill them afterwards.

    • Wow what a bunch of urban radical animal rights retards.Yourofsky? That dirtbag wouldn’t make two seconds in a fist fight or street brawl.Loud mouthed vegan pansy ass pussy.

    • You’re obviously Joyless .. what didnt work for you, it may work for others … stop diving vegans with this nonsense… we are all fighting the same fight.. why critize ?? he’s def a great influence … better than most “plant based” dieters ..

      • No, we definitely are NOT “all fighting the same fight”. Those of us fighting all forms of oppression, including sexism and racism, are not on the same side as those like Gary Y who regularly display their sexism and racism.

        I’m not “joyless”–I’m reasonable. Thanks for stopping by.

    • Wait, do you actually believe that if cats and dogs weren’t “owned” by people (I actually believe my cat owns me, I am really more his “servant” than master and I really don’t mind it) no animals would die at all??? Before you criticize pet ownership, stop and think about how humans who do love animals are actually keeping (or trying to keep) their population under control through spaying and neutering, even of feral cats, for example, otherwise they’d be out there reproducing like crazy and KILLING many more animals to feed themselves, or are do you actually think dogs and cats would just eat plants to survive??? Is that what you think too about lions, tigers, cheetahs, mountain lions, owls, snakes, etc.? Do you think they can be converted to veganism just because unrealistic vegans find their natural dietary habits unpleasant? I know I don’t like to see footage of a lion chasing a zebra but I msut accept that as just part of nature, and cats and dogs ARE CANINES, and nobody can change that. It is true that nowadays pets are fed mainly with the byproducts of the animals farmed for human consumption, but you can’t imply that any animals are expressly grown and slaughtered exclusively for their benefit.

      Also, think of the MANY symbiotic relationships that exist in this world, it’s just part of NATURE also to have some species mutually benefit from one another. Pets keep us company and give us love and we feed and shelter them, take care of their health, etc., not too different from a human birthing a child and taking care of it because they want to become parents. And what about simply “mercenary” business relationships which can have so many negative aspects? Should they not exist either because of the ecological damage? Points too big to have answers to them! What I’m trying to say is that we CAN’T have a perfect world and whoever believes otherwise is only deluding themselves. All we can and should do is to try to be good stewards of this earth to the extent of our abilities and circumstances, and to try to motivate others to do so, which can never be achieved by antagonizing others.

      As for the author’s use of the term “angry white man”, I do find totally unnecessary, made me think he or she is an angry black person or something (btw, I’m Hispanic, neither black or white).

      • “Wait, do you actually believe that if cats and dogs weren’t “owned” by people (I actually believe my cat owns me, I am really more his “servant” than master and I really don’t mind it) no animals would die at all??” I’m not sure where you got that. No, I don’t believe that. And if that is what you think, you need to read what I said again.

        “Owning” pets, where one is property and other is owner, is not “symbiotic”, anymore than pre-Civil War life in the Southern US was “symbiotic”.

        And no, I am neither black/hispanic nor angry.

      • I’m just going to leave this link here for anyone interested in learning more about pet ownership. I’m going to have to agree with The Joyless Vegan in that it is our duty to take responsibility for those animals that are already living and help them the best way we can. However, the whole idea of humans breeding any animal is absurd. Let nature take its course. By the way, quite a few dog breeds (not all) and most, if not all, cat breeds can survive in the wild. For those animals that are unable to survive, it’s our duty to help them survive, but not exploit them. Also, cattle were unfortunately domesticated for food purposes. Cows as we know them today are a man-made animal just like dogs. http://www.vivalavegan.net/community/updates/689-slaves-of-our-affection-the-myth-of-the-happy-pet-book-.html

        Yourofsky is pretty cool, though. Yes, he’s loud and in-your-face. But, hey! Sometimes you have to be in people’s faces for them to listen. He’s not the only vegan advocate to listen to, though. I’m a huge fan of Colleen Patrick-Goudreau! She’s very peaceful in her advocacy and communicates facts and her opinions in a respectful way. I feel it’s best to listen to everybody, whether you agree with them or not, and even if the way they present their opinions is not in agreement with your own. Just listen and take it with a grain of salt. Keep educating yourself so you can weed out the truth from lies. I prefer a balance between peaceful and radical, although I am more on the peaceful side.

      • “Let nature take its course”. Sure, except there is nothing “natural” about domesticated animals, and no, dogs and cats cannot “survive in the wild”.
        Yourofsky is not “pretty cool”. He’s a violent loud-mouth who says women who wear fur deserve to be violently raped. Definitely not cool.
        Radical is fine. Violent is not. Not sure why this concept seems so difficult for people who are supposed to be against violence.

      • Just to clarify a bit on my previous comment. By saying “let nature take its course” I’m agreeing with you that animals should NOT be domesticated. I even said it was absurd to breed animals. Let nature take its course simply means humans should not interfere with nature. No breeding, killing, stealing, torturing, destroying, domesticating, exploiting, etc. Also, it’s debatable whether domesticated animals can survive in the wild. But I do believe certain breeds of dogs and most cats can survive fairly well in the wild or at least be semi-wild. Semi-wild meaning that humans may feed them a few scraps here and there but will not bring them into their homes A.K.A. feral animals. If enough feral animals mated naturally, I believe any future offspring would eventually become wild. Nature will eventually take over and animals that were once domesticated will evolve to adapt to their new environment just as they unnaturally evolved to adapt to living with humans.

        And while I disagree with any violent remarks made by ANY vegan advocate or person in general, I do take time to listen to everyone’s views and take any pieces of information I can get from everyone. I’ve learned to pick out the truth from the lies, the honest from the dishonest, the good from the bad. And that is exactly what I do with Gary and others. Yourofsky definitely has a lot more to learn if he’s speaking violently about non-vegans, but I believe he has the power to change his ways just as a non-vegan can change their (presumably unintentional) violent ways and convert to veganism.

        And just to be very clear. I am not promoting violence. Just keeping an open mind and finding the peace and reason hidden amongst the violence and ignorance.

      • Nuria, I am glad you can keep an open mind in the face of Gary Y’s rage, hatred and misogyny. I can’t. I don’t accept the shit he spews, and there are better ways to educate people. If you can handle his crap, good on you. I can’t.

    • Gary Yourofsky inspired me to become vegan too. Sure, he may say violent things, but that’s not the point of his message. He certainly does not actually commit any of the things he claims he wants to do, so stop focusing on that, and focus on his message.

      • As I’ve said a hundred times already, it is just wonderful that Gary Y inspired you to be vegan. Excellent. Amazing. F-ing teriffic. Okay? But just because he inspired you doesn’t mean he’s infallible, okay? And just because I’m criticizing his violent rhetoric and pointing out that such violence has no place in a peaceful movement doesn’t mean I’m “hating” on him or that I am an asshole, okay? Can we all just please move past that?
        What good is a message of peace when it’s couched in vitriol and violence? Can you answer me that at least? No? Didn’t think so. Goodbye.

      • If “that is not the point of his message” then why does he need to do it? He doesn’t, and he should stop. Seems pretty simple to me. Not sure why you don’t seem to get it.

    • from gary yourofsky website http://www.adaptt.org/animalrights.html#
      Rapists, murderers and child molesters should be vivisected, executed and dissected, allowing researchers the opportunity to gather useful information that would actually benefit human health for a change. I see nothing wrong with capital punishment because if you willfully destroy someone else’s life, then you automatically relinquish yours.

      For the pacifists who now wish to condemn me for supporting capital punishment, let me expose your insanity a little more. When you fight for the lives of people on Death Row, you condemn even more innocent animals to a murderous demise. What do you think convicts in prison eat? Carrots and tofu? Or the dead, dismembered bodies of animals? And if you wish to use the trite argument about executing an innocent person one percent of the time, let me know when society condemns executing 150 billion INNOCENT animals in the meat, dairy and egg industries 100 percent of the time! As for the lame “eye-for-an-eye-only-makes-the whole world blind” comment, when was the last time there was a blind mass murderer? I’ll take a blind compassionate world/person over a seeing evil one any day of the week. There’s NO nobility in protecting victimizers. Murderers, rapists and child molesters don’t need your voice. The victims are the ONLY ones who need help.

      Have pacifists become so in love with their ideals that they’ve forgotten who the real practitioners of violence are? I have harmed no one while meat, dairy, and egg-eaters pay people to RAPE animals to impregnate them, pay people to steal newborn babies from their mothers, and pay people to kill the babies, and the mothers. I have harmed no one while people who wear fur pay people to rape foxes via anal electrocution, rape chinchillas via vaginal electrocution, and break the necks of minks, so that they can drape themselves in skin-coats. But hey, I’m a reasonable guy who’s willing to change his position on violence, and make a deal with all the pacifists in the “movement.” When the rapists stop raping the animals, then I’ll stop “wishing” or “hoping” that rapists get raped. And let me clarify something else. I think rape is purely evil. I don’t support it. Don’t be stupid. Rape is the most evil act of violence that can ever be committed, which is why I wish it happens to evil people. I hope Nazis, KKK members, and domestic abusers get raped, too. I certainly don’t wish for bags of lollipops and money to fall from the sky and gently land in their laps. I honestly think every rapist should have his cock and balls sliced off with a cuticle-remover while he’s fully conscious. Then, he should be forced to eat his severed genitals after they’ve been dipped in puke. After he takes the last bite, I personally want to be there to shove two 12-inch metal skewers through each eyeball, and then drag him into a room filled with 10,000 flies so he can be eaten alive. Go rent the movie Law Abiding Citizen and watch Gerard Butler’s character carry out some poetic justice on the man who raped his wife and daughter. It warms my heart to no end.

      What’s more, anyone who condemns me for my rape comments is a pure hypocrite anyway, because when child molesters are convicted and imprisoned, EVERYONE says something like this: “I can’t wait until Bubba gets a hold of him in prison.” And don’t you dare deny it! What do you think Bubba’s gonna do when their paths cross? Counsel him about his troubled childhood, or forcibly penetrate (rape) his asshole? The problem with pacifists is that they don’t fully understand evil because they refuse to look at oppressive situations from the victim’s point of view—unless, of course, the victim is a fur-wearing ogress who gets raped in some fantasy retaliatory payback prose of mine. The animals who are raped and murdered see no difference between someone who violates them for their flesh and skin, or someone who does it to a human. If only the pacifists could understand this.

    • I would like to comment that in the lectures I’ve heard, I’ve never heard him being violent toward non vegans. Only enlightening: Animal cruelty is horrible. You can get better proteins from vegetables without depleting calcium. Vegan food is delicious. Why not cause the least amount of pain possible. If it’s bad for your eyes, why is it good for your body. I didn’t see the threats or violence against non-vegans. But, I’ve only watched two lectures. And, thanks to those, I’ve “converted” my cousin, her three daughters and her husband. So, I say, thank you Gary.

      • ………and here I am again repeating myself. Yes. Okay? I know that some of what he says is, in fact, worthwhile, as I have stated on here ad nauseum.

        However, as I have ALSO said a hundred times, GARY HIMSELF WAS NOT BORN VEGAN AND NO ONE SCREAMED AND YELLED AND WAVED THEIR ARMS AROUND AND SAID HE DESERVED TO BE RAPED FOR NOT BEING VEGAN. That is NOT the only way to engage people on veganism!

        But I am sick to death of repeating everything I have already said over and over and over to those who insist on defending that creep anyway. So you do you. I have zero shits left to give.

      • If you give zero shits on listening to logic argument in support of Gary Yourofsky, then shut this blog down. You moron.

      • Hey stupid, there IS NO logical argument in support of Gary. Now get off my blog you dimwit.

    • I like how the message of your comment seems to basically be all about having and sharing a personal opinion and the desire to not have someone hate on you simply because their feelings(or techniques) are in opposition of yours. It was a perfect response to the negative message that the author of this article is trying to spread. Just in case it wasn’t understood by the Joyless Vegan who wrote this, If you don’t like something than redirect your attention elsewhere. Don’t invest time and energy spreading negativity but rather find a better way to occupy your time by, I dunno, maybe doing something that promotes good thoughts and a happy state of mind that people are more likely to want and share with others. This article is a downer,
      And for the record, I really like Gary …. or maybe I am also frustrated by all the people who use any excuse they can find to not have to change any aspect of their self centered lifestyles. I think ignorance was a good excuse for people 20+ years ago but now, it requires effort to NOT hear or be made aware of the kind of behaviors and lifestyles that contribute/support the suffering of animals. Not just in the food industry, either. Supply=Demand; Anyone who claims they are informed, educated, experienced in the ways of life but are unaware of animal suffering is either lying, in denial or something else…

      • I like how your comment is so completely and utterly ignorant. Have a personal opinion. I am not stopping you. Go ahead–you have my blessing. And I wrote about MY personal opinion, but you all seem to have a problem with the fact that I criticized Gary Y’s approach. I dunno, maybe if you don’t agree then stay the hell off my blog?? Your comment is a downer.
        And for the record, I don’t like Gary Y. I think his approach could work, if his rhetoric wasn’t so violent. I like in-your-face approaches, but I don’t like telling people they deserve to be raped.
        If you think my message is “negative”, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, I think you are guilty of the exact same thing you are accusing me of.
        Have a nice day.

      • If you think my comment is just as negative as yours then I hate to be break it to you but your level of ignorance makes my ignorance look mild. Also, I’m not posting my negative comment to the attention of anyone who will give me their attention, I was reacting to what you posted because I realy felt hurt and insulted, so much that I felt compelled to post a comment.
        I came across your article when I was searching for information about Gary to offer to a friend so really, not just your previous readers/subscribers are reading your hateful words but it’s being offered to anyone who performs a search for Gary.
        Frankly, I don’t care what kind of violent comments he has made. I’m guilty of the same thing with regard to some of the comments I’ve posted regarding pedophiles and abusers. There’s not one chance in hell that I’m actually going to back up my threats with action but it’s how I felt upon learning of some horrible suffering at the hands of someone who knew it was wrong. For some of those crazy people, I wish I could remove their insides with a dull spoon but in all likelyhood, If face to face with the person, i would try to understand what was wrong with them and try to be reasonable and understanding because for someone to do some of the acts I’ve read about, there must be something wrong with their brain that would allow them to perform the cruel act that they did.
        I felt bad, later after adding my comment here but I couldn’t find it to remove it and instead you post a comment that made me care even less for you. I can’t believe you feel no remorse for things you have said publicly. Is it a matter of sticking to your guns, huh? Trust me when I say that we would all think so much better of you if you would just say that maybe you posted this article following something Gary did or said that got your blood boiling and so in response you acted out by writing and posting this article. Please please, I want to know that you are a sympathetic, kind hearted person because I already feel bad for this comment as I type it out. I would edit it to just say how I’m sorry for ever posting but I think it’s good to show how mean I can be when provoked. So… author of this article. I’m sorry for saying what I did and I hope you forgive me for posting such negativity. Thank you. Have a great day!

      • I’m trying really, really hard to be patient with you, and with others like you, who for whatever reason refuse to read or comprehend what I’m saying. You come on here and preach to me about how I should be spending my time not being critical of people like Gary Y. I very patiently explain why we NEED to be critical of people like him, and you spout this nonsense back at me, telling me I need to just not listen if I don’t like what he’s saying. Except, as I’ve said a hundred times already, it’s not just about “liking” or not “liking” what he’s saying. It’s about the fact that this man, for reasons I cannot comprehend, has become a major figure in the “animal rights” movement, and he is a violent and dangerous person. He advocates for violent action to be done to non-vegans. And THAT IS NOT OKAY. I don’t really care if you’ve fantasized about disembowelling non-vegans with a spoon–first, that is disgusting, and second, do you fantasize about doing that to your own friends and family, or just to strangers? I don’t care if he acts on it or he doesn’t–he’s talking about it, and that’s not okay. People look to Gary Y, for some reason, to guide them, and he has an obligation to keep those shitty kinds of fantasies to himself. I don’t think that is unreasonable, nor do I think I am being a “mean” person to say it. If you think I am negative, words cannot express how little I care. Then think I’m negative–what do you want from me? If you don’t like what I have to say here, then take your own advice and turn your focus somewhere else. Either argue intelligently or don’t waste my time, but don’t expect me to be “nice” when you show up here saying the stuff you are saying.

        Have a super duper day.

      • “Trust me when I say that we would all think so much better of you if you would just say that maybe you posted this article following something Gary did or said that got your blood boiling”
        And trust ME when I say I don’t care a single bit about what you, or others, think of me or anything I say here. I am not on a mission to get people I will never even meet to “like” me. I am on a mission to speak out for animals, and to speak against those people like Gary Y who I see as ruining the animal rights movement. You can agree or disagree, it makes no difference to me, but if you disagree, please comment on the content of the message and not on the fact that you don’t think I am saying what I have to say “nicely” enough to suit you.
        So, again, just to be absolutely clear, I do not care about your opinion of me. You do not know me. Either engage in discussion about what I am saying or don’t, but do NOT presume to come on here and tell me people would like me more if I were nicer. I am not interested in being nice, especially when most of the comments I am getting in response are devoid of any intelligent thought and consist mostly of “well, if you don’t like Gary, just focus your attention elsewhere and stop picking on him.” To which I have responded a dozen times that thinking critically is not “picking on” someone. It’s being critical. I have not said a single thing about his character, other than that he’s violent–and he is. That is not being a “hater”. That is being critical. Like it or don’t, I don’t care, but I won’t stop thinking critically because some Gary Y lovers insist it’s “mean”.

      • argh–sure, smile while Gary Y spouts violence. Keep smilin yo

      • I posted this comment because I couldn’t find the other comment that I posted. I was going through the process of posting again in case there was something that I missed. Forgive me for this comment, I hadn’t seen any notification regarding my comment so I wasn’t sure if it had been submitted properly or if further action was required.

      • Okay, I’m not sure what that even means, but thanks for clarifying. Not sure why you’d post “argh–smile” when you can’t find something, but thanks for the explanation.

      • Just to clarify… My comment about wanting to use a dull spoon was not towards non vegans, I was talking about sick, twisted people who torture defenseless animals and other people. “how I felt upon learning of some horrible suffering at the hands of someone who knew it was wrong. For some of those crazy people, I wish I could remove their insides with a dull spoon but in all likelyhood, If face to face with the person, i would try to understand what was wrong with them and try to be reasonable and understanding because for someone to do some of the acts I’ve read about, there must be something wrong with their brain that would allow them to perform the cruel act that they did.”
        The way you took my words out of context makes me sound like a very disturbed person who has no compassion or understanding.
        I was also very specific in saying that it was a feeling that I had experienced. I pointed out that it was a feeling felt in response to a very upsetting story…
        I’m not going to say anything more for fear that you will also take that out of context but one thing is for sure…. any publicity is good publicity, are you sure you don’t work for Gary?
        I know you’re going to do what you want but you can’t deny that every time you bring attn to Gary ,you are helping to spread his name, increasing his popularity..just saying….

      • Just to clarify, I didn’t take your words “out of context”. There is no context in which I feel it’s okay for one person to fantasize about ripping out another person’s innards with a dull spoon. If you don’t wish to be perceived as disturbed, don’t say such things.

        You can say what you like about my bringing attention to Gary. What I am bringing attention to is the fact that a lot of things that man says are disturbing. So, think what you like–I honestly just don’t care.

        have a great day.

      • Just to clarify… My comment about wanting to use a dull spoon was not towards non vegans, I was talking about sick, twisted people who torture defenseless animals and other people. “how I felt upon learning of some horrible suffering at the hands of someone who knew it was wrong..”

        But actually, fuck all that and please remove all of my comments because I had been posting comments that were emotionally charged. After putting forth a tiny bit of effort I realized that you are perfect in how you are expressing yourself.

        Forgive me, I’m a dumb girl. I hadn’t taken any time to notice that you are posting at your personal website. Yes, we may not agree about Gary but who the fuck am I to talk shit. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and the fact that you’re maintaining this site in an effort to offer up your personal thoughts creates a vulnerability for which most wouldn’t consider exposing themselves.
        I
        Also, considering all of the negative comments people have posted in opposition of your own leads me to believe that you are not taking advantage of any of the options afforded you via the use of wordpress and their platform..
        (This sounded so much better the first time I tried to post but again, for some reason my comment disappeared… didn’t even receive any kind of notification acknowledging it or indicating it was awaiting moderation so I must be skipping a step.)

        I posted the “argh” as an acknowledgement that I had read your comment because I had already decided that I wasn’t going to post a response.

    • Well, I see your point but Gary was the man who made me go vegan, he has many good points and a way of drawing you in. He even said in one of his videos that we do not need to agree with him on everything.

      • Again…..so what if he made YOU go vegan? There are better ways to get folks to understand veganism and why we should be vegan. Rape threats, and death threats, are not part of any reasonable, rational movement. You just can’t justify the things this guy says and does.

    • I think Mr Gary Yourofsky is right in his own way, the important thing he wants to talk about is animal abuse, torture in the industry and stop eating meat egg, cheese, milk, honey and stop wearing leather, silk, wool etc which are the products of injustice done on animals. His approach is direct and real, he is speaking the truth not framing into nice sweet words, such as the harsh reality endured by animals is real and it is still happening. No one is born vegan and some people in spite of being told the reality choose to follow their own selfish desire not caring about someone else’s life, not giving a damn to what someone just said. Think how would you feel in that situation that is how Mr Gary must have felt but deep down he is a good man who loves animals, he is not pointing out to individuals but pointing out to humans collectively as they partake in heinous crimes on animals. It doesn’t matter you follow Gary or not you should not see anyone as a hero or God/saviour take his message and act upon it that’s all that matters. If people get ticked off by his view and not by what is happening in the industry then I must say it is the fault of the people. Don’t talk about other issues like pet ownership and all etc. that is deviating from the animal torture in industry if you love animals you can choose to be vegan, if you don’t you don’t have to.

      • Think what you like. I don’t care. Why come here and argue then? I’ve laid out why I think what I do about him and I stand by it a hundred percent. He is dangerous, and violent.

        Please do NOT TELL ME NOT TO TALK ABOUT PET OWNERSHIP. First, this is my page and I will talk about whatever I want to. Second, pet ownership is one of the many ways we humans exploit, torture, use and abuse animals, so it’s relevant and I will NOT be silent about it. It’s not just animal agriculture that is a problem, and your shitty “you don’t have to be vegan” attitude is part of the problem. yes, if you give a shit about animals YOU DO HAVE TO BE VEGAN.

    • I think this post is ridiculous, obviously, Gary is not born vegan, in fact, no one is, you should understand the true purpose of veganism. Watch his speech on YouTube and be a listener and fairer judge, watch video till the end to have a good judgement. He is not hating you or any individuals but he has given emphasis that humans are guilty as charged as he is, he has also eaten meat, everyone drank cow’s milk, is it not true that humans today contribute to animal cruelty? The obvious reality that people keep ignoring and mock you on your face when you tell them they are wrong. Think how would you feel. The true purpose of vegan movement is to stop the slaughterhouse, meat, egg and dairy industries. It is a form of non-violent movement because you cannot barge in industries and stop their business, the people have to stop paying them it is the only way. stop contributing to any form of injustice on animals like for entertainment, clothing and food. He has clearly explained it, I was moved by how truthful and honest he is, Of course he loves animals why would he be fighting for, stop spreading false news about him. There was not a single thing off on his video. I don’t understand why people are fighting against people who have actually fought and still fighting for a good cause. I recommend you to watch his videos.

      • Obviously. I have watched Gary’s videos and listened to his speeches–that is how I know he’s violent. He thinks that because he is now vegan, he has the right to wish violence, torture and death on non-vegans. I am not okay with that. It’s sad that you are. Goodbye.

      • Please watch that video, there he did not mention anything violent there. If non-vegans are not honest then maybe anybody could get upset. Science has proven vegan diet doesn’t give disease and is healthiest, people making excuses and argue against veganism will always get anyone upset.

      • Please do NOT post links to Gary Y’s shit on MY blog. Thanks. I deleted all your comments with the links in them but pasted your comment below, without the links and with my responses embedded and in parentheses:

        The Joyless Vegan, I’m sorry if I have offended you (you didn’t offend me), I have a pet and so does Gary Yourofsky (what is your point? So do I. I have rescued three dogs and three cats, and fostered as well). He only says that we should not make it a business with unnecessary breeding (no breeding is “necessary”). Anyway, have you watched his other videos like interviews (yes, and he strikes me as an angry and violent sociopath. Seriously. He’s creepy af). What will you accomplish by taking on Gary? (I am not “taking him on”–I am criticizing his violent rhetoric). I don’t understand some people’s thought process, (like I don’t understand Gary Y’s) they seem to be bending on finding fault always and letting others down, he is such a powerful force for veganism (critiquing someone is not the same as being bent on finding fault. And in terms of letting others down–wtf do you even mean by that?). Misanthropy is just a word (words MEAN things!) it means he hates human society like he is not pointing towards you, (right. He HATES. That’s a form of violence. And what right does he have to hate non-vegans when he, himself, was once a non-vegan?) It doesn’t change anything. And I would agree with his view. (Then agree. I literally have zero shits to give. But do NOT come here and defend that sociopath!!) I don’t get why people bother over such petty issue if a person hates meat, (what? It’s not meat he hates. It’s non-vegans.) should they hate that person? People sent him to prison for doing a good thing. (so we should worship him because he did time?) Gary is such a down to earth guy, (and a very violent one) I mean he is even okay with his friend eating non-veg (no, he isn’t. He thinks non-vegans deserve to have violence done to them. Or is that only those non-vegans he isn’t friends with? In that case, he’s a hypocrite AND a sociopath). People shouldn’t consider veganism as a cult or a religion, (never said I do) he is not the messiah (on that we agree), he is a human being after all (yes, and one who used to be non-vegan himself) if a non-vegan condemns you, mocks you, puts you in jail for no harm done who is to blame you (what are you talking about here???). There are many people who acted trolls in Gary’s life he has faced so much opposition (aw, poor little victim Gary. Are you serious??), he has faced so much hate (and he has dished out a lot too!!). I don’t understand how people are obtuse when they haven’t truly watched his videos (I HAVE watched his stupid videos, and read his essays, and seen him get very angry and violent, and read about how he thinks people who wear fur deserve to be raped), this is pure hatred from your part, (how do you figure that? Again, critiquing someone does not equate to “hating” them, so give that a rest please) that is why misanthrope exist, misanthropy is just a word (and it MEANS something–it refers to someone who hates other people. What is your point?). Why are people finding faults? (because HE IS VIOLENT AND THAT IS NOT OKAY). when you could have at least acknowledge the good things he did (I actually did that, but I guess you didn’t read anything I’ve written) sides why have people likened him so much, I like him only because of good deed and service to humanity from this speech. I’m a vegan myself and I do love animals. But why Joyless? (why what? Why am I speaking out against Gary Y’s violent words? Because they are wrong, and he is wrong to say them). I like your dog’s photo (me too. He was a foster dog who I adopted. He’s adorable and pretty goofy). I’m sorry if I’m bothering so much you don’t have to reply me. (I try to reply to everyone, unless they are an asshole. You aren’t being an asshole, so I replied.)

    • There is nothing violent about Gary. Instead, he is a passionate, compassionate Animal Rights Vegan who has witnessed the horror of animal abuse in person. Animal Rights Activist Vegans are the ppl who began Veganism. Your kind did not. You’re not a hardcore underground front liner true Vegan, he is & so am I. Until you have walked in our shoes on the bloody front lines of slaughter against innocent beings, until you’re in our place filming the sick horror of what really goes on behind those closed slaughter house doors instead of sitting in your warm house, your comfy, computer chair, half watching a You Tube video of slaughter, you have no right to tell me, a REAL VEGAN who I can support & who I can’t. Let me tell you this, if I saw your kid, your mom, your brother, whoever you love bash in a rabbits head, break a cows tail on purpose, kick a dog, stomp on a cat, or throw a puppy against a wall, I would surely do the exact same thing to them with zero regrets & I’d make you watch. You are NOT Vegan for the animals tor you’d never have written this stupid article. Veganism is NOT about your greed & ego, it’s about putting animals first before your selfish greedy desires, before your stupid fake eating disorders, before your dumb ass loser kids, before your pus filled milk drinking mother. Just because us real Vegans are going after the ppl who harm innocent beings who can’t protect themselves, we’re considered the violent ones? Are you out of your mind? Get your fat, lazy ass to a protest you so called Vegan. Get your ass to a real animal rescue. Go join Marc Ching in Asia while he risks his life to stop the torture of innocent dogs raised for meat, their paws chopped off to make then suffer prior to a vicious beating, then throw alive into boiling vats of water to suffer further until death occurs. If it wasn’t for ppl like me, Marc & Gary, no animals would be protected. Do you really think you’re protecting animals by “claiming” to be Vegan yet you’re not doing a damned thing in the field, on the front lines to back up your online preaching? We Animal Rights Vegans fight the meat, dairy, fur, lab industries with the exact same cruelty & violence they use on the animals. We have too because crying to them & saying, “Please don’t kill that cute little bunny as it hurts my tender feelings because I’m a Vegan” doesn’t work. We fight fire with fire. You sit there & join our Vegan community, preaching your reasons for Veganism, which by the way are incorrect. Veganism is about ANIMAL RIGHTS, NOT YOUR RIGHTS AS A HUMAN. Veganism NOT a diet. It’s animal welfare & protection of animals against the injustice that occurs against them by the hands of your meat loving kids, your meat loving hubby, your meat loving/ pus milk drinking mother. You make me sick. Take the word Vegan out of your title. You’re so below Gary, Marc & I. Stop calling your cry baby, complaining ass Vegan. You’re Plant Based only, NOT a real Vegan.

      • Holy shit this is quite a rant. It borders on lunacy, but I’ll address your “points” anyway. Here we go:
        “There is nothing violent about Gary” LOL. You have got to be joking. I mean, you heard his rant about how women who wear fur deserve a savage raping, and you heard the part about cutting off a man’s privates and making him eat them and then sticking skewers in his eyeballs, and his rants against Palestinians–you cannot possibly have missed all those rants. So you agree with him, then, which makes you a really horrible person.
        ” Instead, he is a passionate, compassionate Animal Rights Vegan who has witnessed the horror of animal abuse in person. Animal Rights Activist Vegans are the ppl who began Veganism. ” Actually, Donald Watson began veganism, as he coined the term back in the 1930s or something. But I wouldn’t expect you to know that–only REAL vegans know that. You must not be a real vegan.
        “Your kind did not.” It’s “You’re” bro. Learn how to spell.
        “You’re not a hardcore underground front liner true Vegan, he is & so am I. ” What the hell is a “front liner vegan”? LOL. We are either vegan or not. There are no “front liner” vegans. Jaysus. Words mean things, bro.
        “Until you have walked in our shoes on the bloody front lines of slaughter against innocent beings, until you’re in our place filming the sick horror of what really goes on behind those closed slaughter house doors instead of sitting in your warm house, your comfy, computer chair, half watching a You Tube video of slaughter, you have no right to tell me, a REAL VEGAN who I can support & who I can’t.” See, this is what is called “self aggrandizing”–you think you are a “real front liner” vegan because you’ve been in a slaughter house. You completely and utterly trivialize and discount the experiences of everyone else because they aren’t exactly like yours, and that is a bullshit thing to do. And bro, support whoever you want. I literally do not give a single shit. All I am saying is that Gary Y is a loudmouthed egotistical whiny man-baby–if you want to play for that team, you do you.
        “Let me tell you this, if I saw your kid, your mom, your brother, whoever you love bash in a rabbits head, break a cows tail on purpose, kick a dog, stomp on a cat, or throw a puppy against a wall, I would surely do the exact same thing to them with zero regrets & I’d make you watch.” And let ME tell YOU this: your mom, your dad, your sister, your brother, your uncle, your aunt, everyone you love and grew up with, they are all animal exploiters. So you can sit there and talk about kicking in the heads of my family all you want, but first, that makes you a very sick and violent person, and second, do you do that to your own family? When your mom invites you over for dinner, she paid someone to slit an animal’s throat–so do you slit hers in retaliation? What the hell does that even do? No, bro, you are a very sick person. You need help for thinking these awful thoughts about other people. Seriously.
        “You are NOT Vegan for the animals tor you’d never have written this stupid article.” First, it’s not an “article”; it’s a blog. A PERSONAL blog. Don’t like it, don’t read it. Second, yes I am vegan. You don’t know me, so why are you saying I am not vegan? I am, and I have been for over a decade.
        ” Veganism is NOT about your greed & ego, it’s about putting animals first before your selfish greedy desires, before your stupid fake eating disorders, before your dumb ass loser kids, before your pus filled milk drinking mother. ” YOU are all about YOUR ego, and so is Gary Y. Look at what you wrote here, clapping yourself on the back for being a “real front liner” vegan, whatever that even means. No one else compares to your awesomeness because you went into a slaughter house. You have literally NO IDEA about my experiences, but I am not you so I must therefore be less than you. THAT is egotistical. Wrap your mind around that bro. I have no idea why you are referring to “fake eating disorders”, as I don’t have an eating disorder much less a fake one, or my “dumb ass loser kids” as I don’t have children, but you are really making yourself look like a jerk. Somehow I don’t think that is all that hard for you. You are just naturally an utter jerk.
        And what the hell is that about my pus consuming mother? WTF? Is YOUR mom vegan? Is everyone you are related to vegan? No? Then shut the fuck up hypocrite.
        “Just because us real Vegans are going after the ppl who harm innocent beings who can’t protect themselves, we’re considered the violent ones? “. No you are considered “the violent ones” because you ARE LITERALLY VIOLENT. What is hard to understand here?
        “Get your fat, lazy ass to a protest you so called Vegan. ” Are you serious here? I mean, I know you are, but wow. Why would I go to a protest? So I can scream and yell and feel self righteous while advocating for ONE SPECIES OF ANIMAL instead of advocating veganism? It’s called “single issue campaign”, bro, and it’s not effective. Read up on that. No, I don’t fucking go to protests, just like I don’t support PETA or Sea Shepherd. I don’t do single issue campaigns because they don’t work. They actually HARM the movement.
        “Go join Marc Ching in Asia while he risks his life to stop the torture of innocent dogs raised for meat, their paws chopped off to make then suffer prior to a vicious beating, then throw alive into boiling vats of water to suffer further until death occurs” Single issue campaign, so no, I won’t be joining Marc Ching. You obviously see veganism as one-upmanship. Is there a trophy for the bestest vegan evah?
        I am skipping the rest of your bullshit because it’s actually making me laugh too hard to respond to. You are utterly ridiculous.
        “You make me sick. Take the word Vegan out of your title. You’re so below Gary, Marc & I. Stop calling your cry baby, complaining ass Vegan. You’re Plant Based only, NOT a real Vegan.” Like I said, to you veganism is nothing more than one-upmanship. “Look at me, I’m the best vegan, I get a gold medal”. LOL Okay bro. Whatever. I am done with you.

        You are a loser. Get off my blog.

        Unapprove | Reply | Quick Edit | Edit | History | Spam | Trash”

  2. I understand what are you trying to say, but at the same time I do not really agree. I KNOW that if we’re shouting at non-vegans “you’re murderers”, it’s probably not going to change them and they’ll become even more ignorant, but sometimes I get so angry that there’s really nothing else I would do to those people than torture and kill them myself. Seriously. Even when you try to be nice, people DO NOT care. They think ‘humans’ worth way more than animals and can’t even compare to them. Not correct, of course. So called humans are causing this planet to die slowly. Flora and fauna are dying, all thanks to those ‘humans’.
    I heard thoughts like “it’s impossible to change all the people, it’s all in vain, veganism will not solve problems because it’ll never happen that 100% of people will become vegans”, and also things like you say “violence is not the solution to the problem”. But, about the second one….why do we put people in prison, those who commit murders? They are not really having a nice life there. We are torturing them in a way. Also – electric chairs. Same stuff.
    When I mentioned that even when you speak nicely to people, they do not care. And I did a couple of times, I nicely explained stuff to people and all I heard is “I couldn’t live without meat”. They obviously do not understand they’re supporting torture and murders. They think it’s different than for ‘humans’. Well it’s not. It’s way much worse. Once, somebody was looking for a male dog for their female dog (or the other way round) on some facebook page/group, some dog breeder maybe (somebody who doesn’t understand how important is to sterilize your pets), and I nicely said how we should sterilize them, how there’s already too many poor stray animals who deserve to have loving homes, and somebody replied to it pretty much something like “you have no brains, you’re an idiot”. Seriously?!

    I could talk about this for a very long time, but my point is – I DO know that violent approach may not result in what we would like to, and maybe Gary COULD reduce that a bit (although, I haven’t listened to him that much, so I don’t know what kind of things he said), but I know that he’s spreading the truth and it’ll get to some people.
    Recently, I saw his post about Beyonce, I think. He said “yes, she’s still wearing fur, but support this (opening a vegan restaurant or something like that), don’t say bad words about her; she has lots of fans, and can spread a word A LOT!”. That shows that he understands how important is also to shut your mouth sometimes, if you see something good is going on.

    And in the end, thanks for being vegan. Keep spreading the word about this wonderful, cruelty-free way of life. 🙂

    • It’s not about being “nice” or “not nice”. It’s about presenting reasonable, rational arguments and letting people make connections. As I said, no one jumped up and down and screamed in my face that I deserved to be raped because I was an animal exploiter. I didn’t even have a clue what I was part of. Yeah, on some level I knew that the animals I ate had to be killed, but I was never faced with the reality of slaughter houses and I was never challenged on my beliefs. So when I came across some people who spoke intelligently and rationally about veganism, my beliefs were challenged. Because the logic was iron-clad, there was nothing else to do but be vegan. Will that work for everyone? No, probably not. Do we need every person on the face of the earth to become vegan now? No, we don’t. We need about ten percent of people to buy in before veganism becomes “mainstream” enough that nonvegans will be frowned upon and nonveganism will no longer be the “norm”. Veganism will no longer be seen as “extreme” and people won’t be able to write us off anymore as the lunatic fringe. It’s ALREADY happening. Already, the word “vegan” pops up more than it ever did when I was younger, and more and more restaurants and grocery stores are carrying vegan products. It IS happening. Social revolution does not happen overnight. I understand that some vegans feel it isn’t fast enough because animals are still dying. I KNOW THAT. But it’s how it has to be. We can’t just pick up guns and start mowing down nonvegans–those people are our friends and family, people we care about. Does Youforsky (Yourofsky?) want to harm/kill his OWN family? Are his parents, siblings, cousins, uncles, aunts, friends all vegan? No? So they deserve to be raped and killed? NO!!
      Look, I get what you are saying about how our seeming inactivity and unwillingness to change are destroying the planet, and honestly, I don’t know if we could save our planet even if every single person went vegan right now. Maybe. I am not convinced of that. But I do know that change on that scale TAKES TIME. Slavery took decades to abolish in the US, and yes, a war too. Maybe it will come to that, I don’t know. But it’s certainly not what I advocate for. If I can change my ways and become vegan, anyone can. So why not give them the chance? Sure, maybe they won’t become vegan the second you explain to them why they should be, but maybe a month or a year later they will get their head out of their ass. All we can do in the meantime is keep flooding the world with the vegan message.
      I understand your anger and frustration, and I feel it myself often. Sometimes I want to grab and shake people and ask them what the hell is wrong with them. It’s tempting, but we just can’t. How would you like it if someone did that to you? We vegans live by that rule–how would you like it if someone killed you and ate you? How would you like it if you were treated and used the same way animals are? Well, we have to live by that, or else we are hypocrites who are no better than nonvegans. We have to be better. We have to show them there is a better way.
      Gary Yourofsky (Youforsky?) is an angry and violent person. I get his frustration, I do, but he was not born vegan. If he became vegan, and I did, and you did, then OTHERS CAN. But screaming and yelling and throwing things is just an asshole thing to do and makes vegans look like very scary people. Why would anyone want to be like Gary Y?
      In regard to Beyonce, I do not support her. She is not vegan, and we should not be saying that what she is doing is “good” in any way. I am tired of hearing about “baby steps” and “well a little bit is better than nothing”. That is a false dichotomy–those are not the only two options (a little bit or nothing at all). What we need is people who are actual vegans to talk to nonvegans about why veganism is the only thing we can do to help animals. Even if you don’t love animals, we owe them the right to not be used as a resource. What we DO NOT need is confused people like Beyonce sending out a confused message that doing a little to help animals is okay because every little bit helps, even if you continue to exploit animals. That message is NOT OKAY. It’s why the animal movement is in such a mess today.
      Thanks for stopping by!

    • Natasha, you can focus on people who have thought of becoming vegetarian, and who want to learn more about veganism. I find those people already have a certain level of awareness.

      It is wonderful what Gary is doing, I certainly don’t think i would threaten people. Some people are just like a wall, and when you talk to them about these things, they just say, “veganism is stupid” or “bacon”, they clearly are not aware enough. Those people are probably the last to get on the bandwagon. Just share your food with people you care about. I am sure they will like it a lot.

      • Unfortunately, people around me do not care. Mostly.
        I have one friend who just recently became completely vegetarian. For a longer time she ate meat once in a big while but now stopped, and I helped her out with some useful info about gelatine. Anyway, I think she has a potential for veganism, but is already a very kind soul. I remember she telling me once that eggs she eats are from her grandma, I think, and, to be honest, I can’t blame her for that. I know it’s not enough, but sometimes it’s a slow process and it takes some time.
        But most of people around me really do not care. My father is eating way too many corpses a day, but he’s just one of those ‘unchangeable ones’. Sure, sometimes I’m saying some stuff to people, but to be honest, I avoid it, because they just make me annoyed. My dad even forbid me to speak about that stuff around him and I certainly do not want that. He’s just a very narrow-minded man, in general.

        But anyway, hope I’ll manage to cope with all that anger that’s inside of me. We should be here to keep helping animals.

        Btw, I saw your post about pets. Did you really mean we shouldn’t keep dogs and cats as pets?

      • I know what you mean, Natasha. I have not had much luck with talking to friends and family about veganism. They just are not interested. I had a friend who adored chickens–thought they were cute and smart and wanted one for a pet. But she also ATE chicken! I tried to talk to her once about that, but she just defended it. I have better luck talking to complete strangers!

        In regard to your comment about pets, no, I don’t mean that we should not rescue unwanted animals and give them the best life we can. In fact, doing so is tremendously important. But we should not be breeding any more into existence. So, yes, one day I hope to see a time when dogs, cats and other animals are not being kept in human homes for human purposes. They don’t exist to make us feel better, to make us laugh or feel less lonely, and they don’t exist to “serve” us (“therapy” dogs, etc.). We should not bring them into existence just to use them for our own purposes. I love the three adopted dogs and one adopted cat I live with, but if there were only two dogs or two cats left on earth, I would not breed them. We have no right to keep “domesticated” animals. No right at all. For the ones who already exist, we have an obligation to take care of them (not kill them in shelters or turn them loose to fend for themselves), but we absolutely should NOT continue breeding them into existence.

      • If the animals can be taken care of very very well, then I think it is fair for them. Breeding animals for them to be pets is wrong, and misusing them in our homes is wrong also. Maybe one day when I’ll have a backyard, a garden and a house, I will consider adopting a cutie. We breed animals for the wrong reasons. Actually there is no reason we should be breeding animals. For the moment, I would prefer to have visiting animals. Like hummingbirds. Cats breed a lot. I think neutering and spaying is also wrong. Cats wouldn’t reproduce as much if we didn’t domesticate them. In the wild things don’t work that way. I think it’s true of all species. Although the thought of becoming a cat lady intrigues me. We shouldn’t control their population for our sake

        Regarding vegetarian food, ignore people who are closed minded. My first boyfriend was raw vegan, as soon as he told me to stop eating meat because it wasn’t good for me, I simply did it cold tofu. Don’t stress over people who are a wall. Seriously. There are people out there who could use your help in tasting vegetarian/vegan food. Too bad. You care about your dad, and he will never know. My family is the same way. I don’t talk to them anymore. My health, and the wellbeing of the ecosystem matters to me more than all the closed minded people. I honestly stopped caring about people like that. Right now I am feeding a vegetarian newbie samples of all the food I make which she hasn’t tried yet. She likes it. Everyone else is sort of jealous.

        Find the people who are like an open door. Because chances are their mouth is open too, waiting to be fed vegan food. 🙂

      • Rose Walker, while I appreciate your comment in response to Natasha, I have an issue with it:

        It’s not about “taking care” of animals “well”. That is not the issue. Regardless of how “well” we treat them, we shouldn’t be breeding them into existence. Which I think you kind of say in your comment, but the “treat them well” comment confuses things.

        Also, I’d like to point out that neutering and spaying are not “wrong”. Unwanted animals suffer, and all breeding needs to stop. Given that cats are not “wild”, the same rules don’t apply to them. Obviously we should not interfere in non-domesticated animal populations (although many people want to), but we cannot say the same for domesticated animals. There is nothing “natural” about them.

        You are right, however, about not wasting time on people who are not even remotely motivated to change. Focus on those who are, and it’s much more satisfying. My family members won’t change, either, and it’s hard. But I just don’t really bother with them much anymore.

        Thanks again for stopping by to comment 🙂

    • Wow @joyless, you are such a pathological lying piece of dog shit. You imply that you are fighting against all forms of oppression, which includes sexism and racism, yet you responded to my original comment saying that there is no “reverse racism and sexism” and that you drink “angry white men’s tears”. Plus, in the blog, you make a generalization about these “angry white men.” If you were truly for equality, you wouldn’t say such things. If you were truly reasonable and not joyless, you wouldn’t say something as absurd such as “reverse discrimination” (which is a stupid term, because there is only discrimination) doesn’t exist.

  3. Gary Yourofsky says that it’s great what Beyonce did, the announcement and all on GMA even if she’s far from being an ethical vegan, she’s not even vegan, she just eats plant-based since some time apparently AND he said to me that I should go fuck off because I did some anti death penalty comment on a thread in which he said that he’s pro-executions of humans (even though there are lots of wrongfully convicted people)…the point is, Gary may be great for many things/points, but he’s still a human (those creatures he despises so much) and he is not perfect, and he, too, can be a hypocrite when he goes all nice on Bey, like he calls her, even if she’s not even vegan, while still being so neurotic towards a commenter like myself…he said that he wishes people would be about the animals, but he was the one talking about humans, should I just forget about my empathy towards humans at all? While I will always have respect for him, it doesn’t mean that he’s this totally non-hypocritical perfect vegan…and I agree with this post, while his famous speech is great and can turn people into vegans, his angry attitude can go all wrong…I like him because he’s not all positive vibes and he knows how to tell a truth in your face (I like people like this and I can get them), but he doesn’t always have the absolute logic and common sense to him…

    • I am also anti-death penalty, as I know that there is systemic racism in the justice system and it’s all too easy to execute the wrong person. I guess that is great if you are someone who will never be in that situation, but for a lot of people it is a grave injustice. And as a vegan, I am against injustice. If Gary Y is in favour of the death penalty, it just shows how confused his thinking is and furthers my point of why he should not be a “voice” for animal rights. I agree with you that I once admired his straight-up, non “spiritual” approach, but there is simply too much sexism and anger in that man for my liking or for the animals to benefit. His “eggs are chicken periods and periods are eeeeewwww” is very off-putting. Factually, he is incorrect, as chickens don’t get “periods”–they ovulate but don’t menstruate. And as a woman, I do menstruate, and I don’t think it’s okay for him to go around telling everyone how disgusting my body (and other women’s bodies) is. If he’d change some of his messaging and drastically scale back the angry white guy garbage, I might be able to actually respect him. But as it stands, I just wish he’d shut up.

      Thanks for commenting! 🙂

      • You’re Anti Death Penalty, You’re Anti Animal Rights, You’re a fake Vegan. What a crazy human you are. You must be a Libra or a Gemini, but most likely a conceited, self centered Leo. You want those sick bastards on death row to live out full lives with food, shelter, warm clean beds, books, TV’s, pen pals, who would gladly slip your throat for sexual pleasure, gladly torture to death your beloved child because it felt good to them to hear your baby scream & to see your babies life blood drain from their body? There is not a single person on death row today that is innocent. All of them have committed such horrible crimes against humanity & pose such a huge risk to the rest of society that a jury of their peers had decided they are better off dead. And, they get to die a painless, quick death unlike all of their victims, unlike animals at slaughter houses, yet you want them to live….You’re crazy..you’re truly crazy…Plus you want hard working folks like myself to pay for their free ride with my tax dollars for the next 50 years or so until they die peacefully in their sleep? I want you to get your ass to a prison near your home TODAY, walk your talk lady. Ask the guard to let you sit in the cell of a convicted child killer, a psychopathic rapist. I dare you to sit there & look into their demon, soulless eyes, maybe even give them a warm, fuzzy hug, then come back to this blog & tell us you’re still anti death penalty. You’ve never been to a slaughter house, you’ve never met anyone on death row. You know nothing about real life or even risking your own life for something/ someone greater than yourself. How in the hell did I find this blog? Ugg, such a huge waste of my time….

      • Here is some context for you: a child molester murdered six members of my family–he killed the adults to get to the children. He raped the children and then killed them.

        He is in prison, and NO I DON’T WISH THE DEATH PENALTY FOR HIM. In fact, I am grateful to live in a nation that does not have the death penalty. And I don’t need to explain myself to you, Gary.

        I have spent time in prisons and interacted with the inmates. And guess what, Gary? I am able to see their humanity. That makes me better than you, and you can’t stand that, can you? I don’t condone what they did, or what was done to my family. I am not going to hug murderers, as you seem to think. But you are creating a false dichotomy, wherein we must either hug them and have warm fuzzies with them, or we kill them. Not a lot of in between with you, is there Gary?

        A little constructive feedback, bro: You come across as an emotionally unstable, borderline psychopathic whining man-baby. And it’s totally off putting to anyone who is sane, rational, and actually understands animal rights issues. You are damaging this movement beyond measure. You think you are some sort of war hero, but you are just demented and have the emotional control of a toddler. You throw a lot of tantrums, which apparently impresses a lot of people who are just like you, but you aren’t helping animals. You are just a loud mouth egotistical lunatic.

        You are a waste of time. Don’t come here again.

  4. Scaring people or being violent towards people is just a way to paralize and make people more stupid. I you want to inform people about veganisms, talk to the people around you, there is a very high chance that most people around you have thought about becoming vegetarian and are curious about veganism. I imagine this is Gary’s way of spreading the message, but you don’t’have to be like this. SHARE VEGAN FOOD, INFORM PEOPLE IN A COHERENT NON VIOLENT WAY ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THE ENVIRONMENT. DO THAT! DON’T THREATEN ANYONE, OTHERWISE YOU’RE MORE OF A TERRORIST! WE ARE SUPPRESSED ENOUGH AS IT IS!

  5. Yes, thank you for this. I find Yourofsky creepy as f**k. He comes across as the worst sort of narcissist on his Facebook page. which consists of belicose narcissists attacking other activists for not agreeing with them. In general it has become a serious problem – one we have to address as a community or it’s just going to get worse.

    I’m surprised that there are any feminists following Yourofsky at all after he made this statement: “Every women ensconced in fur should endure a rape so vicious that it scars them forever. While every man entrenched in fur should suffer an anal raping so horrific that they become disemboweled.”

    Add to that the fact that he uses a brute force approach while citing Louis Farrakhan as a major influence… Farrakhan made some very unflattering comments about Jews, and I believe Gary is Jewish, so is there a monumental disconnect there as well? .I truly believe that many people really don’t recognize what they’re hearing and reading from Yourofsky for what it actually is.

  6. Don’t shoot the messenger…

    • Sorry, what? I am not sure what you are saying. I am a vegan myself, and not a violent one, so I’m not shooting anybody. However, I strongly dislike how Gary Y goes about advocating veganism, as he comes across as angry and violent, which is not good for the animal rights movement.

  7. I agree….While deriving some measure of inspiration from Gary Y’s zeal and venom, tormenting the recipient is NEVER a good approach in gaining acceptance of the message, no matter how well informed and truthful it may be… Tact and diplomacy do indeed work wonders for us all! Maybe he needs some “one on one” time with Gandhi and Goethe……It’s all about compassion and education in the flow to progress towards the Truth of All Being…

    • I can understand the appeal of Gary Y’s over-zealous call to arms, but I think it is horribly misguided and hypocritical. I wonder, did anyone threaten Gary Y with violence if he didn’t become vegan? I mean, he wasn’t BORN vegan, so at some point, something happened and he made the decision to be vegan. Was it because he was threatened with violence?

      If someone had threatened me with violence over being non-vegan (and I was non-vegan, for the first 25 years of my life), I would never have even bothered to become vegan because who the hell wants to be a violent psycho who goes around threatening others?

      I find it hard to believe that Gary Y is okay with his own non-vegan friends and family being threatened with violence for being non-vegan, so why the hell does he think it’s okay to preach violence towards other non-vegans whom he doesn’t happen to care about or be related to?

      I think Gary Y’s anger and zealotry appeal to a certain segment of the population that is NOT a good sampling of vegans. Rational, reasonable education is what is needed, not agitated sabre-rattling. Gary Y is all about ego.

  8. Umm Gary has converted more people than any organisation PUT TOGETHER! He pretty much turned Israel Vegan and they’ve been going Vegan en MASS ever since. I’ve wrote to Gary on multiple occasions and he has never told me to fuck off or anything like that – actually it was the opposite! He is one of the only people willing to speak 100% HONESTLY for the animals. How many people have you guys converted? He has done more for this movement than anyone else ever. Jesus, no wonder he hates Vegans as well, we should be supporting every person who has the voice and the Vegan message. And by the way NO massive SOCIAL CHANGE especially ones that are trying to liberate a group from OPPRESSION has ever occurred without violence. Slavery, Jews, etc – we had to go to war for EVERY one of those. And we’ll go to war for the animals. Violence has its place in ALL social justice movements, thats just a fact of life.

    • I cannot take seriously anyone who claims that Gary Y. has “converted” more people to veganism than anyone else. That is BS. Gary Francione has done more than Yourofsky (Youforsky?) ever will, because Francione’s approach is much better.

      I, too, have wondered about the need for violence to get people to stop using animals, and again, I think that is BS. No one needed violence to get ME to be vegan, so why are we going to do it to others? No. Educate them. Most people ALREADY believe animals matter–it’s a matter of educating them. And it’s happening. You can see it. So spare me the BS of we need violence to liberate oppressed groups. All violence does is spread more violence. Are you seriously going to declare war on your non-vegan friends and family? Do them injury or harm because they aren’t vegan? You dare touch anyone I love and I’ll show YOU violence. You have no right to go around preaching violence as a means to end animal oppression. It’s such a stupid tactic.

      Also, Gary Y. did NOT “turn Israel vegan”. Horseshit. Have a nice day.

      • Yeah your response pretty much makes no sense at all. Gary has thousands of public testimonials from lecturers, students, advocates etc. And he is an educator. He lectures. Not violent. Israel 8 % vegan because of his education. Thats not big change? Not sure where you pulled the whole declare war in your family from. Im saying every social justice movement happened with some kind of violence. Wonder what would have happened if we just tried giving Hitler and the nazis an education in equality instead of taking action? We wouldnt have liberated the jews ended slavery or anything else. Yeah he said he he wishes violence on evil people. Has he actually killed anyone? Has anyone raped someone because of him? Gary promotes animal rights with the brutal truth, and ALL the love in the world for the animals and THAT is why he is so successful.

      • Yeah, my response pretty much makes all the sense in the world if you actually read and understand it. I never said that he’s not an educator, but I don’t really consider screaming and swearing at people (and throwing chairs at them, which he has admitted to doing) “educating” people. I never said that nothing he says has any worth. In fact, I said the exact opposite. But what I also said was that he couches his arguments in such anger and vitriol that his message is lost. When I said “declare war in your family”, what I meant was, are we going to talk to our non-vegan friends and family the way Gary Y talks to non-vegans? Do you really think that is okay? I don’t. Gary Y goes around talking about how non-vegans should be raped and have horrible things done to them. The problem with saying things like that is that everyone I know–and likely Gary Y’s own family and friends–are non-vegans. And I care about those people, even though they are not vegan, and I don’t want them to be raped or to have the awful things done to them that Gary Y says should be done to all non-vegans. Do you understand now? That is what I meant by “declaring war”–that is what you’d be doing if you were to act like Gary Y. You’d be declaring war on your non-vegan friends and family. Not sure how I can make that any more clear for you.

        “Has he actually killed anyone?” No, not yet, but he has admitted to getting physically violent (ie throwing chairs) with some of his audiences. “Has anyone raped someone because of him?” Not sure how I’d prove that, but whatever. My point is that there is no need for him to come across as such a violent person. I understand his passion and I share it. I understand his frustration and I share it. I understand how he feels about what is done to animals each and every day for no other reason than we can, and I share his rage, his helplessness, everything he feels I feel too. But I don’t go around talking about how non-vegans should be raped or killed because that kind of rhetoric serves no purpose in what is fundamentally a movement for PEACE.

        Sorry that you can’t seem to understand that. You may consider him successful, and perhaps he has inspired some to go vegan. But he would be more effective if he weren’t so goddamn violent.

        Have a nice day.

      • Also, your argument about Hitler is simplistic. There was a fuck of a lot more that happened in that entire situation. Germany was in a bad position that allowed Hitler to rise to that position. It was a lot more complicated than what you are trying to make it out to be, but nice try.

      • Lol as you just said you would harm anyone who touches who you love. Gary loves the animals. Make the connection. Jesus

      • “Make the connection”. The connection has been made, friend. I am an abolitionist vegan. But unlike Gary Y, I don’t go around saying that non-vegans—like my friends and family, for instance—should be violently raped or have other disgusting things done to them because they are non-vegan. Would I harm someone who harmed someone I love? Perhaps. Would I harm people for doing the very things I myself was doing ten years ago? No, I wouldn’t, because that would be utter hypocrisy.

    • I have to disagree with you. I’ve talked to Gary via e-mail and he was a dumbass to me several times. The first time he was rude to me and told me that if I wanted to be a true vegan I should break-up with all my meat-eating friends. The second time he literally told me to “fuck off and to never e-mail him again” after I just asked him why was he religious, out of curiosity, which made me conclude that he is a religious bigot that doesn’t allow his faith being questioned. I was always polite to him and thanked him for his motivational speeches, but after his feedback I started to despise him and understanding how much toxic he can be to the movement. Hell, I would have turned to consuming animal products again after reading his e-mails if I wasn’t already a strong vegan. He claims that hatred has his roots in speciesism, but he shows more hatred than any meat-eater I’ve even known. I think the problem is that he doesn’t have any concept of desensitization, for him every animal product consumer is genocidal even when the people are not really aware of the animal exploitation. He sees the world in black and white, he is unable to detect the shades of gray.

    • Wow, just reading the word “converted” makes me cringe! Just like I suspected being a vegan is to some a cult, one that I don’t ever want to be a part of even if I’ve decided to eat a “plant-based” diet (and started transitioning only 29 days ago) in great part do it due to compassion on farmed animals (my other reasons are my health and my small contribution to the planet). I can tell you for a fact that MANY meat-eaters will NOT ever consider it for the same reason I just mentioned

      To see you condone violence in order to further this “movement” is scary to say the least, veganism should NOT be compared to a political or social movement, it’s not just about the animals, there are several aspects to it and not everyone is an “ethical” vegan as some of you like to call it, besides, living in HARMONY and respecting one another should be most people’s concern rather than trying to cram down other people’s throats what we think is right because that is NOT freedom so I find it very hypocritical on your part to even mention slavery.

      Whether you like it or not there will ALWAYS be animals who feed on other animals all over the planet (ever watched a documentary about ocean life???), that is something that IS part of the planet in which we live. To us Christians it’s actually a product of The Fall, and NO human is ever going to be able to change that, no matter how much effort you or anyone else put in it, only God will do it at the appointed time and then “the lion and the lamb” will be able to lie together. But it’s obvious you believe differently and that’s part of your freedom which I must respect. However, you still cannot ignore that it’s part of nature that some species feed on other species, as you yourself said “that’s just a fact of life”, so instead of thinking it’s ok to commit violence against those we disagree with, why don’t you just ACCEPT this fact of life? Obviously again, that doesn’t seem to enter your mind due to the delusional preaching of most vegans, maybe eating too much soy or phytates affects the brain, I’d better be careful with that so I don’t become so absurdly blind!

      • “To see you condone violence in order to further this “movement” is scary to say the least, veganism should NOT be compared to a political or social movement, it’s not just about the animals, there are several aspects to it and not everyone is an “ethical” vegan as some of you like to call it, besides, living in HARMONY and respecting one another should be most people’s concern rather than trying to cram down other people’s throats what we think is right because that is NOT freedom so I find it very hypocritical on your part to even mention slavery.”

        W. T. Ever-loving. F? Veganism IS a social justice movement. It’s about justice for animals. It is not about the environment or your health. IT IS ABOUT ANIMALS. If you are not an “ethical” vegan–if you are one of those “vegans” who is doing it for health reasons or environmental reasons–chances are you aren’t really vegan, other than what you eat. What besides ethics would stop you from going to circuses, zoos or rodeos?

        “Whether you like it or not there will ALWAYS be animals who feed on other animals all over the planet (ever watched a documentary about ocean life???), that is something that IS part of the planet in which we live.” Who the fuck is arguing this? There will always be animals eating other animals–no shit. What does that have to do with HUMANS, WHO HAVE NO NEED WHATSOEVER TO EAT ANIMALS, EATING ANIMALS?! Please explain, using something other than mythology.

        “To us Christians” Too late. Here’s the mythology. “it’s actually a product of The Fall, and NO human is ever going to be able to change that, no matter how much effort you or anyone else put in it, only God will do it at the appointed time and then “the lion and the lamb” will be able to lie together.” No one is asking lions and lambs to lie together. No one is saying anything about “God”. All anyone is saying is stop using animals, given you have no moral justification to do so. “Moral” does not equal “Bible”. Christianity is one of many mythologies, and none are truth.

  9. Gary Yourofsky is awesome. And I just wanted to visit your whiney rant post to continue my support for a vegan who knows how to get people’s attention. He inspired me to go full vegan from a vegetarian. Hes great. So stop crying 🙂 he has a right to believe whatever he wants and if people agree… Who cares? You do, going out of your way to bash a vegan who speaks for the animals. Dont you think those animals would agree with him? Wouldnt you feel pretty pissed off at dirty hateful humans? Ignorance isnt the problem I try to share the facts with my friends and family and they don’t care. They just look the other way and continue to support the hatered

    • Aww, that’s nice that Gary Y inspired you. I never said he wasn’t inspirational. In fact, I credited him with having many worthwhile things to say, which you’d know if you’d actually read my “whiney rant”. Yeah, he has a right to believe whatever he wants, but it’s stupid to say that non-vegans–presumably including all his own non-vegan friends and family–should have horrible things done to them because they are not vegan. I am not “bashing” Gary. I am saying he should tone down the violence.

      I myself was inspired by non-violent vegans who talked to me in reasonable, rational ways about all the reasons I should be vegan. And I became vegan, no rape threats needed. If I can, anyone can.

      “Dirty, hateful humans”–you mean, like the ones you and I were before we became vegan? If you and I became vegan and that process didn’t involve threats of rape and death, then why are you so convinced that no one else can go vegan without being subjected to Gary Y’s violence?

      “I try to share the facts with my friends and family and they don’t care”. So they deserve to be raped and/or killed? My friends and family give zero fucks, too, but I don’t want them dead because of that.

    • “so stop crying”. The ONLY ones I see here crying are all the dingbats who come here to defend their good pal Gary Y. YOU need to stop crying and start trying reading comprehension. Really. Give it a shot.

  10. Indeed violence sows the seeds for further violence and that can’t be avoided. As Buddha once said: “Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.”

  11. He deserves all publicity possible because is one of the few that actually got balls to move his arse from the coutch and actually do something. In regards to violence that he wishes on othera dont be like many low IQ people that already fill up the world today. He is referring on the same cruelty that us people do on animals and it is a very true comparison and really gives a more effective picture on how cruel we can be and we are cruel. My full support to this amazing guy that really knows his stuff and got always an amazing answer to any question!!! Keep going and don’t listen to people that are just activist in front of a computer screen or sitting on their couch watching TV.

    • He certainly is not “one of the few” doing something for animals. There are a great many grassroots abolitionist vegan activists doing a great deal to educate others. While much of what Gary Y says has value, which I did acknowledge in my post, he couches it in so much vitriol that it loses much of its meaning. We don’t have to be angry and violent to be good activists, but thanks for your input.

  12. While Yourofsky is articulate, he can be bullying and he has a very controlling nature. He’s lacking in charisma and his strident tone is off-putting. I’m a vegan and I worry that he’s hurting the cause. Please know there are plenty of caring, compassionate, empathetic vegans who don’t act like boot camp preachers or take self-righteous judgmental stances.

  13. Can you please post sources of whee he has says these things? About being “anally” raped and violent?

  14. *******THIS ARTICLE IS A SCAM*********** HERES WHY
    This is not about your mom or dad, friends etc THIS IS ABOUT THE LIVING BEINGS THAT ARE TORTURED, TEETH PULLED OUT, TESTICLES RIPPED OUT, RAPED, SUFFERING EVERYDAY, THROATS SLIT STILL ALIVE, SKIN RIPPED OFF WHILE STILL ALIVE, POKED IN THE EYE SOCKET TO WALK TO THEIR MURDER. This should not be taken lightly and I would advise you to focus your energy on education, conversion and making a difference for living beings by any way possible as long as others don’t suffer. This article is not helpful its harmful. If you are not mad about the way humans treat animals then you need to look at that not Gary.
    How many people have you converted? hundreds of thousands?? All you are doing is trying to turn people off from a man that HAS converted hundreds of thousands.
    This article and the writer no doubt was paid or is financed by the meat, dairy, egg industry. —THIS ARTCLE IS WRITTEN BY THE MEAT INDUSTRY, KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN PEOPLE THEY KNOW VEGAN IS THE NEW WAY.

    • This article is not a scam. It is calling out a violent man. I don’t know how many people he has “converted” but I’ll bet Gary Francione has done more. And Francione doesn’t talk about how non-vegans deserve to be raped and/or killed. I am fully aware of the horrors of animal exploitation. I am vegan. And I became vegan not by having someone scream at me that I should be violently raped; I became vegan when I found intelligent, calm, reasonable people at the now-defunct Vegan Freak forums. Gary Y is not good for the animal rights movement. End of story. Bye now.

  15. Hey JV. Completely agree with you re. Gary Y. Becoming vegan for me is about peace, to not be part of a violent system. If we don’t have the right to visit violence on animals then we certainly do not have the right to inflict it upon human beings.

  16. Perhaps we should work together as opposed to saying anything negative about other vegans. There are so few of us…it makes no sense to be critical of other vegans. There are plenty of carnivores to do that. I choose not to ‘take sides’. I just watched Gary’s famous speech and I was inspired and energized. I don’t choose to throw rocks at him OR you. Let’s stick together. We have much good and important work to do together for the animals. Thanks for listening…and my best to you AND Gary Y.

    • No, see, we need to think critically, and thinking critically is not being “negative about other vegans”. It’s being CRITICAL, which is totally fair and is necessary to any social justice movement. It’s not about “taking sides”–it’s about not promoting violence in a non-violent movement, not perpetuating racism or sexism, not promoting veganism as “baby steps” and “personal journey”. No one is “throwing rocks” at anyone, other than Gary Y hurling boulders at non-vegans. You sound like one of those Melanie Joy loving welfarist apologists who says that everyone is just on a journey, world won’t go vegan overnight, we’re all working toward the same goal–yeah, if we are going to “unify”, then we need to be consistent. We need to promote a CONSISTENT message that veganism is not about threatening non-vegans with violence, which is particularly stupid and hypocritical considering NONE of us was born vegan. Gary Y is a hypocrite, and I will continue to call out him, Ricky Gervais, and any other person who does not think critically and present a coherent abolitionist message of animal rights. You can like it or not, I don’t care, but don’t tell ME I’m “throwing rocks”, etc. Because we both know that is a load of BS.

    • I respectfully disagree. I don’t want to refrain from critical educated discussion about someone just because they agree with one of my moral decisions. another of my moral decisions which is actually more important than veganism (to me) is to not visit violence on humans, nor to agree with it in principal. veganism is part of disliking violence. that’s me personally which is why I respectfully disagree, as it appears the promotion of veganism is more important for you. Re. Your comment “we need to stick together” I experienced this in my youth in a cult and that is probably why I don’t agree with you, but I do understand why you would feel that way – it may detract from the message of veganism. Although do many non-vegans care?? It’s so great you are vegan – fantastic.

      • We should always, ALWAYS be critical thinkers. We should think critically about veganism, and we definitely need a coherent theory so we understand what exactly we are advocating. People like Gary Y confuse everything so much with their violent rhetoric, and I think that needs to be addressed. How can we “promote” veganism when we don’t even fully understand what we are promoting? Veganism is about non-violence toward sentient non-humans……..why would that be at odds with non-violence toward HUMANS?

  17. Thank you Joyless Vegan for this article. I became a vegan long before I first heard of Gary Yourofsky but started to really idolize him for what he was doing. But more recently I started to feel uncomfortable with some of what he was saying and how he was coming across. Just found this article on him that I think sums things up quite well too: http://www.energygrid.com/animals/2015/05ap-yourofskyrape.html

  18. I heard about him a couple times and from what I’ve seen, I have mixed feelings about him. He’s much better than most vegan representatives out there because he did go out of his way to create organizations, speak at schools and take action to make change rather than just ranting in front of a camera. That being said, what he wishes upon other people is wrong and may actually do more harm than good. It creates a negative stigma on the rest of the community. I definitely agree with your argument about using education as a tool for spreading veganism rather than violence. If people are informed, that is enough. 🙂

    • As I said, much of what he says has worth. It’s how he says it that is the problem. Informing people is one thing; harping on about how they should all die unless they’re vegan is just…..disturbing.

  19. Your argument is flawed because it is set in a non-violent paradigm without questioning the validity of that paradigm. So we should not tout Gary merely because he espouses that we do unto others? The so-called “passive resistance” is nothing more than a honeypot tool created by the government. Not only do I support Gary and his violent intentions towards humanity, I will happily join him in the kosher slaughter of unenlightened mankind. Prepare thyself for the reckoning.

  20. I agree with the article, as I have had a really horrible experience with this man, and the ironic thing is his speech is what made me consider veganism and giving it a go (so far I’ve successfully transitioned to vegetarianism, and am now almost fully vegan). Seeing some of his more pleasant interviews where he came across as a very nice person, I was very impressed by him and saw him as an inspiration.

    So, when around two months ago I was having a bit of an ethical conundrum, in that I was, and still am, regularly eating eggs that come from my family’s chickens, who are completely free to roam around a 4 acre area of land and free in every sense of the word, because I can’t agree with the fact that I shouldn’t be eating them, I thought who better to message than Gary Yourofsky himself, the man who converted me, and at the time continued to be my source of inspiration.

    We had a short (5 or 6 messages I think it was) back and forth discussion, where he put across some pretty valid points, but couldn’t convince me that it was unethical. As I really did want to be given an ethical reason to stop eating the tasty eggs, I replied each time saying I still couldn’t get my head around as to why there was an ethical problem. In each message I sent him, I made it very clear that I wasn’t trying to provoke or argue with him, and that I seriously wanted to be convinced to stop eating free range eggs from our chickens if it is unethical.

    After about 4 messages, out of the blue, he sent the most disgusting, hateful, personal message I’ve ever received in my life. I deleted it straight away so can’t quote it, but he told me something along the lines of “go fuck yourself, your c*nt mother, and to eat dog shit, because it’s more nutritional than chicken eggs anyway.” I was shocke and shaking with anger due to somebody I looked up to saying something bad about my Mum. If I saw him in real life any I would take great pleasure in seriously hurting the guy (I don’t agree at all with any of his disgusting torture fantasies, but…..).

    So yeah, for that reason I’ll never be promoting or sharing ANY of his teachings or videos again, which is pretty sad given that they are without a doubt some of the most effective and articulate vegan information/propaganda videos out there. I think his ‘greatest speech you’ll ever hear’ has converted more people than any other video, so it’s very sad that I’ll never show it to anyone. Such a f*cking disgusting man.

    • Ya know, I am glad you agree that Gary Y is kind of an ass, but I can’t move past the fact that you eat chicken eggs. You want a reason why it’s unethical? The reason it’s unethical is that chickens and the products of their bodies are not commodities or things to exploit. You have no right to them, however “tasty” they may be. You can argue that the chickens are not “hurt” by your eating their eggs, but the “hurt” you are doing is in the act of commodifying and exploiting them.

      It’s not about how we treat animals, it’s that we use them at all, for any reason. Sheep may not necessarily be “hurt” in being used for wool, but the fact that we breed them into existence and keep them captive because we want something they make is commodification and exploitation, which are both INHERENTLY harmful.

      That is the ethics behind animal rights–they are not things for us to use because we can, because we want to, because they taste good or things they make taste good.

      The chickens, left to their own devices, would consume their unhatched eggs themselves, thereby replenishing the nutrients their bodies lost in the laying of those eggs.

      Those eggs are not for you. They are not yours. They belong to the chickens who laid them.

      If you care about animals, please stop exploiting them in any way. Go vegan.

    • Why do you need an “ethical reason” to stop eating eggs? We don’t need them. It’s inherently harmful to chickens to commodify them and the products of their bodies. Why do it at all when you have absolutely no need to? Something’s being “tasty” is not a reason to keep eating it. Just….stop.

      • I need an ethical reason because I enjoy eating the ‘tasty’ eggs, but would like to call myself a vegan, but won’t until I am convinced I am doing wrong by eating eggs.

        The chickens are currently third generation. They have not been bred, or held captive for any reason at all. They roam our 4 acre plot and are free to leave if they wish. They dont even go anywhere near leaving though, such is the abundance of the grain and water we give them. Their eggs are purely a byproduct that we take, the chickens are NOT there just for their eggs. This is evident in the fact that more of our chickens are past the non-laying age than aren’t. Most of them don’t lay, there is no rooster so the eggs aren’t unborn chicks.

        Most chickens don’t eat their own eggs when left to their own devices, and these ones don’t. We know this as we often leave eggs upto a week before collecting them. Chickens only do that occasionally, its not a habit they generally adhere to, and is usually a sign of definicies in their diet such as calcium, a bit like when dogs eat their own shit.

        I guess they are a commodity to us, but why is that a bad thing? That’s just a description…that’s what I can’t get my head around.

        For what it’s worth, what you’ve said is much more persuasive and a lot more articulate than any of the points that Gary put across. All he did was tell me I’m a psychopath for eating something that comes out of a chickens ass and that I should eat dog shit instead.

        I should also point out that this is the only thing I do that’s holding me back from calling myself a full vegan, so please don’t think of me as a bad person..

  21. ……seriously? “Why is it a bad thing” that we are commodifying living beings? Oh, I dunno…….look at the chicken industry. I mean, you can convince yourself that your third-generation chickens are far removed from it, but I mean….we grind up male chicks alive because their lives literally HAVE NO WORTH to us. Their lives mean everything to them, but they have no economic value to us so death it is. They are literally garbage–their little bodies get tossed out in the trash, sometimes while they are still conscious so they are left to smother. I understand that you are saying that YOUR particular chickens are removed from that, but by consuming their eggs you are reinforcing the idea that it’s okay to do that to chickens–even if “your” chickens are not directly suffering, others are and that is not okay. This is the problem when we talk about treatment, or animal welfare, rather than rejecting all animal use, period. And if we reject all animal use, we reject it–even if the sheep whose wool we take live wonderful lives filled with music and green meadows, or the “ahimsa” milk we drink makes sure baby calves stay with their moms (this is bullshit, by the way, they don’t) or “our” chickens are treated wonderfully. You are still using them. Regardless of whether the chickens will eat the eggs or juggle them for fun, the eggs are THEIRS, and not yours. And you don’t need to eat them. So don’t. I really don’t see why that would be a difficult “ethical” decision.

    I guess my biggest problem with what you are saying is this. You seem to want to call yourself a vegan, and you don’t want me to think of you as a bad person. Fair enough. But WHY are you eating these eggs? I mean, you’ve said they are tasty. Well, a lot of animal foods are tasty, but as vegans, we walk away from that. It just seems to me like you are doing everything you can to NOT be vegan, and I don’t get that. Just stop eating eggs. Just….stop. If you don’t, you are reinforcing the speciesist paradigm that we can use animals in a number of ways so long as they are treated nicely.

    That is the welfarist mode of thinking, and it’s damaging to animal rights. If you value animal rights–that is, if you believe that each and every animal values their life as much as you value yours and has the right to not be used as someone else’s property, there is no other choice but to stop consuming animal products–all of them–and go vegan.

    I am not sure what else to tell you.

    I am glad that our discussion has gone better than what you had with Gary Y. I really get sick of his “eating something that comes out of a chicken’s ass”. THAT is not the reason we shouldn’t eat eggs. Ohhhh that guy….grrrrr.

  22. One question: If “your” chickens have not been “bred”, then how are they “third generation”? They must be breeding but you said “no rooster”. So….what does this mean? Are you rescuing the hens?

    I think the reason the word “commodity” when applied to chickens does not bother you is that you still have some residual speciesism–they are “just chickens” to you, and they just leave eggs laying around that you happily scoop up and devour. We can see quite plainly how commodifying humans is wrong and exploitative–turning “someone” into “something” never benefits that someone. Ever. Having personhood and autonomy stripped away to become a thing doesn’t ever do anyone any good.

    Commodification is NOT “just a description”–it is a real process that happens to turn animals–sentient beings who value their own lives and want to keep living–into things, units of production. Their bodies become parts and products; we disassemble them in slaughterhouses, reducing them to their parts. And then we assign a price to those parts and make money off selling them or, as in your case, derive personal pleasure from consuming them.

    Have you read anything by Gary Francione? If not, I strongly encourage you to do so. His Abolitionist Approach to animal rights is pretty straightforward and easy to understand. Check out his page at http://www.abolitionistapproach.com or check out books like Eat Like You Care or Introduction to Animal Rights: Your Child or the Dog.

    • We have 22. 10 are rescue hens, 6 are past the age of laying, and the other 6 are currently laying. The 12 non-rescue hens were given to us (can I say that or does that mean Im taking ownership of their life?) by our neighbour who keeps a large variety of different breeds of birds. Some of them are pretty fucking cool

      Pointing out that I dont value them as sentient beings because I used the term “my chickens” is like assuming that my brother is ‘just a sibling to me’ because Id refer to him as “my” brother. Most (all, actually) of your points are based on false assumptions and for some reason you seem to think that you know how we view the chickens, which is very ignorant. You are twisting our intentions based on what we are doing, so let me express how we see the chickens from a much more positive point of view. I don’t see them as just chickens, i see them as beautiful forms of art that nature has created. They live, breathe and potentially love, just like you and I. When we take the eggs from the barn we don’t ‘scoop up and devour’ them, we take them carefully in a way that doesn’t disrupt the barn or living conditions that we’ve provided the hens with.

      Referring to slaughterhouses is completely irrelevant, and incredibly unrepresentative of the living conditions that we’ve provided them with. We rescued them from being products. You are describing the global meat and dairy industry in your third paragraph, which has nothing to do with this discussion.

      I guess you could phrase it two ways. Yes, of course you could say we are taking something that is theirs and rightfully belongs to them, despite the fact that after laying they completely forget about them and don’t try to use them for their own personal gain whatsoever (even when the chickens are broody we let them sit until they finish sitting). Or you could say we are putting a beautiful product that they have created for no personal gain, and taking it for our own personal gain with great pleasure and appreciation for this beautiful work of nature, instead of letting it rot and attract crows and magpies, who just interrupt the nesting boxes and perches in the barn. But the thing I am happy with is that in neither of those two descriptions is anybody being harmed in any way whatsoever, whether they are being commodified or not (I hope I made it clear that they aren’t).

      At the end of it all, I simply can’t understand what is wrong, when the chickens aren’t being harmed at all. To us they are not a commodity, they are beautiful life forms and it has been a pleasure caring for the rescued ones, and rearing the hatched ones that we got from our neighbour.

      Cheers for the link, I’ll read it when I finish work and let you know if it changes my opinion or not. I’ve not read much vegan literature at all so would be open to any new ideas or discussions.

      • Andy, hello. You are vegan in my view….and don’t be bullied by this scary bunch who think only their way of viewing things is correct. I am vegan and don’t eat eggs but I possibly would do from chickens such as those in your field. The chickens in your field will not be harmed by you eating their eggs and they certainly will not be offended. It is perfectly natural to eat eggs. The only moral problem is from caged birds…that just isn’t fair or ethical.

      • You eat eggs, you aren’t vegan. Even Andy acknowledged that. If you are vegan, you don’t eat animal products. End of story. If you think that is “scary”, then I feel sorry for you.

      • “The only moral problem is from caged birds”…..No. It isn’t. I thought you were vegan…but you can’t be, because if you were, you would understand that it is not how we TREAT animals that is the ethical problem but THAT WE USE THEM AT ALL. We have no need to keep chickens for eggs. No human being needs to eat eggs. We eat them because we WANT to, meaning we exploit chickens for no other reason than that we like how eggs taste. Liking how eggs taste is not a morally justifiable reason to exploit hens’ reproductive capacities, regardless of whether the hens are in cages or running free in verdant meadows. It doesn’t matter. What matters is that we have no reason to use them, but we do anyway. THAT is the problem, not whether we keep them in cages.
        As a vegan, you should probably understand that. I am shocked and appalled that you don’t, and due to your ignorance I can only classify you as a welfarist. Welfarists are not welcome on this blog unless they are willing to learn why welfarism is utterly stupid and useless.

  23. ….you actually have no idea what those hens feel about their eggs, or what they think about them, or how they feel about your helping yourself to them.

    You are not getting the concept that commodification is INHERENTLY harmful. When you turn someone into something (egg-layers for your personal consuming pleasure), you ARE, whether you mean to (or believe you are) or not, commodifying them.

    You can tell me all you like about what “beautiful life forms” these chickens are, but if that were true, you’d respect them enough to not consume products of their bodies and reinforce the specieist paradigm that chickens exist for us to consume.

    There is nothing wrong with taking in rescue hens and giving them the life they deserve. Taking eggs from them is not part of that life.

    By eating these eggs, you are indicating to every single person in your life that doing so is okay. You know what gave rise to factory farms? Little family farms and people who have set ups just like the one you are describing. But demand increased to the point where these little operations could no longer supply it, and voila–factory farms were born.

    You are fueling demand for eggs. You are reinforcing the paradigm, the way of thinking that allowed factory farms to exist to begin with.

    You are, in essence, no different than factory farms, other than you think you “treat” your chickens better. But eating eggs and creating a demand for eggs is the problem, not factory farms.

    I hope you do read up on this. There is a lot of info available on the ‘net about why “backyard hens” are not vegan, not ethical, not okay. I really hope you research it for yourself instead of hoping someone somewhere will “convince” you it’s not ethical.

    Also, Peaceful Prairie Sanctuary says this about their rescue hens and the eggs they lay:

    What do you with the eggs that the PPS hens lay?
    Well, they are not our eggs to do anything with, they belong to the hens and no one else. The chickens will actually eat their own eggs as it helps to replenish their bodies’ nutrients. When we find unbroken eggs, we break them open for the chickens to eat – which they love.

    I also found this interesting (please go and read in its entirety):

    …backyard chicken keepers often portray their relationship with their chickens as a “win-win.” They provide their chickens with a great life and, in return, their chickens provide them with eggs. There are at least two problems with this position. First, it ignores the fact these eggs exist only because of the systematic manipulation and re-engineering of the chicken hen’s reproductive system which forces her to produce an unnatural and unhealthy amount of eggs. Secondly, it is impossible for chickens to give their consent to such an arrangement. It assumes that they desire to make a sacrifice for us, but in reality, their intensive egg-laying — and the adverse consequences that come with it — is simply forced upon them by no choice of their own. But, what if we adopt or rescue backyard chickens? Well, as author Charles Horn points out, “If the desire is there to eat the eggs, did that consciously or subconsciously go into the decision to adopt in the first place? If so, the intention was never just one of providing refuge; it was also one of exploitation.”

    By creating an exception for eating the eggs of adopted chickens, we then open the door to other exceptions being made. As Horn points out, “If it’s okay to eat, is it okay to gather and sell? Is it okay to adopt many chickens and make a business out of it? Again, we’re seeing how we still have a mindset of exploitation here and just how easily the slippery slope can lead people toward animal agriculture. If not them, someone else surely will, because the mindset of exploitation is still there.”

    Connected to the slippery slope we create by making exceptions for eating certain eggs from certain chickens are the many implications of identifying ourselves as “egg-eaters” as a general matter. It often creates a “domino effect” which is fueled by at least four realities that work together to cause the domino effect. 1. We send a powerful message of affirmation to others simply by eating eggs — regardless of their source — even those laid by the hens in our backyard. 2. Egg industry marketing has tried and tested methods of seducing well-intentioned and caring consumers and fabricating feel good brands and stories that will falsely suggest that their eggs come from places like our backyard.

    3. Most consumers are still grossly misinformed about egg farming and cruelty to animals, and egg marketers of course use this to their advantage. And finally, 4. consumers have a powerful incentive to believe in the humane myth with which these marketers manipulate us, with their feel-good packaging, signs and advertising at the point of purchase that resemble or allude to the kind of conditions that we associate with backyard settings.

    The sad reality is that most caring consumers targeted by this marketing buy into the myth, both literally and figuratively. Or they order eggs in a breakfast eatery where happy hen motifs adorn the walls, and they falsely associate this experience with a backyard hen scene, when, in reality, even the most upscale restaurants get eggs from hens raised in absolutely deplorable cage conditions.

    As author Hope Bohanec points out, “when someone eats eggs from their own hens, they then identify as an egg-eater and don’t limit their consumption of eggs to just the supposed ‘ethical’ eggs from their hens. They will eat other eggs as well in a restaurant, at a friends house, etc., so they are still supporting the cruel egg industry, even though they may identify as only eating ‘ethical’ eggs, it is unlikely that those are the only eggs they are eating.”

    ….

    Putting harm aside, we might want to stop and think a bit more about what kind of relationships we are cultivating with our backyard chickens as well as what message we are sending out to the world. Must every relationship we have be contingent upon getting something in return? Sometimes we can just show kindness and compassion. Sometimes we can just appreciate others for their intrinsic worth and not base their value on what we can get out of them. And in the case of chickens, this could never be more desperately needed, considering all of the suffering we force upon some 40 billion of them around the world every year for our tastebuds. – See more at: http://freefromharm.org/farm-animal-welfare/backyard-chickens-expanding-understanding-harm/#sthash.h36roWa4.DXlNBWLi.dpuf

    • I disagree with a lot of your analogies and your references to the dairy industry are, like I earlier said, completley irrelevant to this discussion. I am not indicating anything to anybody, I’m not creating any demand whatsoever, and to compare the chickens in our yard to those in the factory farms is incredibly insulting to factory farmed chickens. No, the problem with factory farms isn’t the concept behind them, it’s the disgusting conditions in which the hens are kept. The concept behind them might be unethical WHEN ITS THE REASON FOR KEEPING THEM, WHICH IN OUR CASE IT ISNT. Once again you are making the assumption that the sole reason we have chickens is to eat their eggs.

      Telling me I DONT want to be vegan makes no sense whatsoever. I’m commenting on a vegan blog, asking for a discussion about the ethics of my diet and looking for something that challenges my current beliefs. To say I’m looking for reasons not to be vegan is ridiculous. If I wanted to not be one I’d just not be one. That is one of the things Gary Y said to me, and is so wrong. Right now, I believe what I believe about eating the eggs. I want to have a clear conscience, so have come for information that might either make me feel happy I’m not doing anything wrong, or make me reconsider my diet. Maybe saying I was here because I ‘want to become a vegan’ was a poor choice of words.

      Having said all that, the quotes you’ve posted there are VERY though provoking, they are exactly what I came here, and what I originally went to Gary for, thinking I might find something like that. Just skimming through them I can see that there’s a good chance these will make me seriously question my dietary choices…

      So thanks a lot for that. This has proven to be MUCH more of a productive discussion than the one I had with Gary.

      Some constructive criticism…next time somebody presents the conundrum to you that I did refer straight to those quotes. The other comments you wrote were too far removed from my situation, factory farming is just not the same as what we do, maybe it is but you didnt quite spin it enough articulately enough. Thanks a lot, I’ll read it all this evening and let you know how it goes. Like I said, just from what you’ve quoted it looks like I might be seriously rethinking things.. So yeah, thanks again and fuck Gary Yourofsky

      • It doesn’t matter what the reason is for keeping the chickens, if you take their eggs no matter what. What then separates you from someone who keeps them exclusively for egg production? Nothing. You both keep chickens and take their eggs. Intent really doesn’t matter when the result is the same for the chickens–being used for eggs. You really do seem to be arguing what amounts to semantics–but the animals are still exploited. The harm done to the victim is the same, regardless of your intent.

        Cheers!

    • I just wrote a long comment about your reply but I think my internet cut off and didn’t let me post it so here it is again…

      Those posts are very very thought provoking. When I read the link later on I think there’s a pretty good chance they’ll make me reconsider. Seriously. Use them more when people ask about eating backyard eggs.

      Some constructive criticism about your points, and bear in mind this is coming from somebody who still eats backyard eggs, not somebody who has the same opinion as you:

      – Maybe the points presented in the links will explain how the eggs in our garden can be linked to factory farming, grinding up chicks, slaughterhouses etc., but unfortunately your comments weren’t articulate enough. Factory farming is too far removed from our backyard to make the analogy in a comment of your length and it almost put me off reading further, so in the future please don’t use it!

      – Many of your points (to me) seemed to be based on false assumptions about how we view our chickens. Maybe they weren’t false, but that’s how they came across.

      -Don’t tell me I don’t want to be a vegan. I was raised a meat-eater. If I wanted to ‘not be a vegan’ as you put it, I wouldn’t be wasting my time looking at vegan information. I’m here because I want to be completely fair and compassionate in my approach to animals. Veganism dictates that eating backyard eggs isn’t either of those things, so I came here looking for any info that might make me reconsider so I can clear my conscience, or allow me to continue eating eggs because they’re tasty and I’m not in the wrong. When I posted my first comment I believed the latter. There’s a good chance I’ll be thinking the former when I read the links. Gary Y told me I refused to be a vegan and, after telling me to eat dog shit, it was one of the most ridiculous things he said in his message (albeit the least offensive).

      BUT the important thing is you seem to have given me something to read that might make me seriously reconsider. The quotes there have already got my mind going.. So yeah, thanks for the info, in the future try to make those quotes your go-to response to somebody who argues what I have argued.

      I’ll read it all later tonight and come back to let you know how that goes. Maybe I’ll reconsider, maybe I’ll keep eating the eggs, but like I said they seem pretty logical and very persuasive, so thanks for this potentially very productive discussion…

      • I am glad this has been a productive discussion and kept civil 🙂 But I stand by my assertion that if you wanted to be vegan, you would be. You would not use “tasty” as an excuse to keep eating eggs–you’d just stop. That is not an assumption of any kind–you told me you still eat eggs because you don’t see it as being unethical. It’s too bad you got so defensive over what I said, but the fact is that the posts that I quoted, which I am glad you found thought provoking, repeated EXACTLY what I had said (showing others it’s okay to eat eggs, creating a demand, etc.).

        Even with these posts, you are still saying “maybe” and that to me shows no real commitment or desire to commit to veganism. You may be looking for vegan information but it also seems like you get annoyed with vegans for saying things to you that are true–as I said, the things I quoted were things I had ALREADY said to you but you refused to accept.

        Factory farming is not at all removed from backyard animal exploitation in the sense that it all regards animals as units of production and not sentient beings who have the right to live free of any kind of human interference, including taking their eggs (or honey, or wool–do you use those things too because the same logic would apply, really and as the quoted material said, slippery slope).

        Anyway, I hope you become vegan and leave eggs where they belong–with the hens and off your plate.

        Thanks for stopping by! 🙂 Best wishes.

  24. I just asked Gary on a YouTube Video why he doesn’t mention fish in his speeches and he told me I was a stupid douche bag and he was going to ban me for being a dip shit.

    • Sounds about right LOL. Gary is giving vegans/vegetarians a bad name. He is causing an uproar on Facebook today. He posted a very disturbing status about the missing and dead hunters. He also said “violence is the only answer and they need a bullet to the head.”. They, I can only assume being non vegans. His militant approach is backfiring and coming back to bite him in the ass. It’s a shame because his speeches are great. Smh

      • Yeah, I really don’t like the celebrations that occur online whenever we learn that a hunter has died. As disgusting as hunting is, I don’t think it’s appropriate or particularly kind to celebrate the death of another person. I don’t like what hunters–or any animal exploiters–do, but not that long ago, I myself was eating animals and wearing them. I agree that it’s a shame about Gary Y, because so much of what he says has worth and value.

      • I just read the post about the hunters. Wow. At least he mentioned fish this time. Maybe my question wasn’t so stupid after all.

    • Wow, that is pretty…….harsh. That was a valid question, and you certainly were not being a “dip shit”. Wow. Just….wow.

  25. Yes, who would want to follow people that celebrate tragedies? Lead with love. And thanks for the validation. I think because he’s in constant attack mode himself, he sees everything that’s not stroking his ego as an attack. Somebody above said that he’s lead hundreds of thousands to veganism. I don’t know where they’re getting their statistics because by his own admission he “thinks” he converted about 15% of the 60,000 people he spoke to. Nothing to sneeze at, but let’s keep it real. If he tried a different approach, maybe it would’ve been more.

  26. When it comes to the chickens, what is the alternative? Just release them? Then coyotes and foxes will have them all dead within 48 hours. It’s not exploitation, the people get something out of it (eggs) and the chickens get something out of it (Protection from predators).

    • No one said “just release them”. The “alternative” is to keep them without exploiting them. If the chickens were not bred into existence to begin with, for the sole purpose of providing humans with eggs they don’t need to eat, then they would not “require” “protection from predators”. Makes perfect sense.

  27. for God’s sake make up your own mind about the ethics or morality of eating eggs/meat or whatever. who cares if you for don’t fit another person’s def. of morality or what a vegan is?
    I don’t call myself vegan I am sick of the religious overtones – Gary converted me so he’s good. Gary said I can’t eat eggs from free ranging chickens who are not killed when they don’t produce eggs so it must be wrong.
    Who is he – jesus christ of vegans?

    I will not stop condemning gary’s revolting violent attitude to non – vegans – it is the same stance as ISIS – kill those who disagree.
    I will promote his speech that has shown some people a different way.
    I will continue to eat only plant based food – to promote the ethics of not eating meat.

    • …….yes, make up your own mind about morality, and don’t be hypocritical about it. That is what I am saying, so what is your issue here? Morality in regard to humans using animals is not about “making up your own morality”. Some types of morality are absolute. For example, most rational and decent people agree that raping another person is always wrong, and molesting children is always wrong. But for some reason when the victims are animals, people like you wave their arms and scream moral relativism. There are no “religious overtones” to veganism. It’s not ABOUT religion. It has NOTHING TO DO with religion. It is about consistent principles, particularly that if you think it is morally wrong to harm animals for no justifiable reason, which is a statement most decent people agree with, then you cannot eat them, or eat them or products of their bodies, as doing so NECESSARILY HARMS THEM. That has nothing to fucking DO with religion, so don’t spout that “religion” shit here, thankyeverymuch.

      “Gary converted me so he’s good”. Gary promotes violence and thinks women who wear fur should be raped–so you think that’s “good”? Then get off my blog, as I don’t welcome here misogynist assholes who think raping a woman for wearing fur is a “good” thing.

      As to your “promoting the ethics of not eating meat”, why would anyone trust your “ethics” when you are fine with Gary’s promoting violent rape? That is hypocrisy.

      • Hey you completely misunderstood me joyless.I actually agree with you.however when people say Gary is OK despite promoting rape and violence – to me personally that is completely at odds with respecting the sanctity of life of which both humans and animals are a part. It seems his followers think the cause of animal rights doesn’t count for humanity. I read the posts – People have asked Gary if it’s OK to eat eggs or whatever? Is that not like following a guru or religious leader? Even if he was a lovely guy why would anyone put their life views entirely in the hands of someone else? This is the valuable service that your blog provides – discussion, thoughtful discussion about issues that matter to vegans. Religions do not generally discuss – they say this what “Gary” says, this is what the book says – and shut down arguments. Anyone who does not agree is the enemy – Isis/religions rape and kill in the name of God, Gary promotes this for people who disagree. No difference.
        Veganism is Not a religion that’s my point. Gary is a disgusting violent human being.
        I’ll get off your blog, I think you have been attacked so long for your views that you lash out. I wish you well. Great topic to bring up btw.

      • Apologies if I misunderstood. But you kind of came across a certain way……..so……I don’t know. Anywho, thanks for stopping by.

  28. I think Gary is an inspiration. A true advocate. He is passionate about animal rights, yes. Violent human being? No. He is a great public speaker. I’ve listened to his speeches. They are phenomenal. I admire his passion. His beliefs are commendable. I became a vegan after listening to one of his speeches and I am grateful to him. Grateful to him to have taken the time to educate people to give up eating animals, not only for ethical reasons but for health reasons too. He probably has saved human lives. For, as you know, numbers go down after stopping eating animal flesh and by-products.

    So instead of sharing your ‘joyless’opinion and judging a fellow animal rights activist. Get off your high horse and be thankful for his commitment and help in saving thousands of defenseless animals being slaughtered!

    • Think whatever the hell you want, but there is no way I will ever support a man who says women who wear fur deserve a savage raping. You do you, lady. Whatever floats your boat. But don’t tell me to be thankful for that loudmouth spouting his misogyny everywhere.
      And I really don’t think he can take credit for as many people going vegan as you are claiming. And even if your made up numbers are true, I’d counter that Gary Francione has created at least as many, with nowhere near the theatrics and anger.

      • Listen, and listen greatly! I never said anything specifically and directly nor made mention to the fact of fur wearing or “women who wear fur deserve a savage raping”. For you to be so specific about that and make that comment. I believe it is you who is “spouting misogyny everywhere”. The comment, “whatever floats your boat” is not only a scathing remark but a very personal character attack and shows your immaturity and ill informed knowledge on this whole vegan agenda.

      • No, YOU listen. Gary Y made that comment; I simply repeated it. I am not spouting misogyny; he is. “Whatever floats your boat” is not a “scathing remark” or a “personal character attack”. It is a comment indicating that I really don’t give a single shit what you think or who you support. Gary Y is not someone I would ever support and I spell out why. If you don’t agree, then don’t. Kindly fuck off now.

  29. You’re too focused on yourself, Joyless. You say Gary Francione’s approach “worked for you,” but not everyone is like you. A different approach might work for someone else. Before denying the number of people Gary has turned vegan just because you disagree with his approach, consider that his “Best Speech Ever” has almost 3 million views on Youtube. Add to that the hundreds of lectures he has given, and the fact that Israel’s population went from 5% vegan to 13% vegan after his lectures. If there are certain things Yourofsky says that you disagree with, why not highlight those things specifically, instead of dismissing him altogether and telling vegans to “stop promoting” him?

    You say that “Every good point [Yourofsky] makes about veganism is completely negated by the vitriol and violence he continuously spouts.” I respectfully disagree. The “good points” he makes are correct on their own merit, just as the so-called “negative” points he makes are incorrect on their own merit. Part of being a critical thinker is being able to recognize this nuance and make this differentiation.

    • Thanks for the comment. A different approach is fine, but that approach does not need to include violent rhetoric for what should be a non-violent movement. Respectfully disagree all you want. I still stand by my assertion that vegans ought not to promote this guy.

  30. I became a vegan through Mr Yourofsky. I have shared his message with others. They have become vegan as well. I will continue to do what is getting results.

    • Just because you became vegan by listening to Gary Y does not mean others will. It really doesn’t matter how you became vegan. As vegans, we should not be using violent rhetoric to promote a movement that is, at its heart, non-violent.

      Do whatever you want. All I am saying is that it is hypocritical to use violent rhetoric to promote a non-violent movement. But you do you, hypocrisy and all.

      • Mr. Yourofsky is far from violent and clearly cares about people becoming vegan more than you ever could… sorry but it seems to me that you will never and could never amount to the amazing things he does for animals and this earth.

      • You have obviously not read the replies from others on here confirming that he has been utterly rude/horrible/spoken violently to them. Sorry, it seems to me that you will never and could never comprehend that this guy is utter shit for the animal rights movement, which is predicated on peace, not wishing violence on others. Thanks for stopping by to share your uninformed belief, though. Have a super duper day.

  31. I haven’t read past the first dozen or so of replies here ( I don’t have the time to discuss sexism and racism here there are enough other places to do so) . I relate to much of what Gary says and he definitely is responsible for many many converts. I admire his courage…too many of us are whimps when it comes to speaking out) However I think some of his ideas are becoming irrational and not in line with scientific evidence based research. A shame because that is also the level that carnists work at. his claim that herbivores are the only innocents and that wild carnivores are endowed with empathy enough to become vegans is really beyond the pale. This is in the light of his past defence of true carnivores having an entirely different design for hunting and digesting meat to herbivores ..which is scientifically true. To suggest that millions of years of evolutionary adaptation could be reversed before this planet becomes a lifeless waste is …and I can’t think of a better word…ridiculous. However in regard to herbivores I am pretty sure they would take in a certain amount of caterpillars and aphis etc with their herbs! ( I wonder how Gary deals with them along with the microbes in his eyelashes) Captive herbivores will not refuse processed animal food which is based on ground animal carcasses. Let’s learn from Gary that we need to speak up fearlessly in the defence of other species but use wisdom, logic and maybe a bit of clever but honest marketing skills to get our message across.

    • I also found it utterly absurd that Gary Y was speaking out against carnivorous animals. We need to worry about human animals; what other animals do is not our concern and is beyond our control.

      Let us learn from Gary Y that we ought not to speak of doing violence to non-vegans. Let us learn to use science and facts intelligently. Let us learn to not be anything like Gary Y.

      Thank you for your comment–I agree that we must use logic in our arguments for veganism. Not sure we need to “market” it, but we must be consistent in our message, and that message should not include violent rhetoric.

  32. All I know is that after two days of immersing myself in his videos I felt like I hated the whole human race and did not reply to social comments in as loving way as I should’ve. Which makes us look like idiots. Reminds me of a quote I seen somewhere “Be the Kind of Vegan Others Would Want to Be if They Were a Vegan.” I would not want people to hate others on the account of me. Mr Y. posts celebrations at the death of hunters. That’s not someone I would want my child to hear the message from. People will wake up after hearing a message of truth, yes, so why not out of love and not hate. It’s a very dangerous way to spread a message. What are we, ISIS? Mr Y is. He prides himself in being banned from countries as a terrorist. OK. Cool. You saved the lives of animals. Thank you. But what’s next from him? Beheading people? He said himself that violence would be the way to end animal exploitation. I don’t want people who know that I’m Vegan to think of him when they think of me. It’s a turn off and turns many people away from the message. People already think we’re hippy fanaticals even though we’re not. Wake up people and think what you’re saying. It definitely DOES matter how you hear the message.

    • Exactly. He promotes hatred, and you can pick out his followers a mile away by their hate-filled, anti-non-vegan rhetoric. It’s ugly. We should not celebrate the deaths of hunters–that is not part of a non-violent movement. It makes me wonder if he includes his OWN family and non-vegan friends and acquaintances in all the violence he spews. And that really makes me wonder what kind of person he really is. Ugh.

  33. Gary got our attention and the rest of the world to consider the animal holocaust better than any other. My hat is off to this dedicated animal rights activistism.

    Bravo, for Brilliant work bring sanity to an insane industry.

    I have to laugh when people sight his anger, as if you shouldn’t be outraged by the carnage, pain, and suffering.

    Frank Lane

  34. “When people sight his anger” is not a good sentence but whatever. As I’ve said dozens of times on here already, much of what he says has worth but he need not couch it in such anger and vitriol. No one is asking him to sit anywhere. We are asking him to tone down the vicious, violent, angry rhetoric. But if you adore him, you do you bro.

  35. Whoever wrote this article is a hater and jealous Gary. He is an intelligent man who can move crowds. He moved me. He has a powerful voice and an incredible intellect. I don’t see anyone else traveling the world, giving “intelligent” speeches on behalf of animals, in the form of education. How dare you talk such rubbish about a man who has done so much for animal liberation. Again..you’re jealous.

    • Yes, I am so jealous of a misogynistic, violent man. Oh, just so jealous. So glad Gary Y “moved” you, whatever that means, but that does not change the fact that he is violent. So go worship him if you please, but don’t bother stopping by here to tell me I’m “jealous” of this borderline psychopath and his hateful rantings.

  36. I’m not violent or angry and I am very supportive of Gary. You need passionate activists to make social change. Movements are started by people who are uncompromising in their belief to do the right thing. He points out the horror that people are perpetrating on innocent sentient beings – there is no playing nice about this issue. How many people are tolerant of pedophiles or rapists? And yes, it is the same thing. It’s is abuse of power on the part of the abusers and passivity of vegans who are afraid of offending abusers. Ultimately most movements move to the middle but without vociferous activists like Gary they can’t even get started. What starts out as radical becomes the norm. God bless him.

    • There is a big difference between being “passionate” and being a misogynist. I am by no means “afraid of offending” non-vegans. By no means. But not caring if I offend them is a hell of a lot different than saying they deserve to be savagely raped or killed. If you think it’s okay that Gary Y talks like that, then you do you. But I don’t. He isn’t “radical”. He’s just violent.

  37. Wow, why does the term angry white man cause such offense? Whether people want to acknowledge it or not Gary Yourofsky comes over as a very angry man and he is white so the description fits. If he was coloured I would describe him as an angry coloured man, or a hispanic as an angry hispinic man. Oh, and just for the record, if we were talking about a woman then I would say woman instead of man, women can be angry as well as men.

    Gary Yourofsky says a lot of very good things and I was very excited when I first saw him online, he was superb in the first video I saw and I was cheering him. Then I saw his video on what should happen to rapists and the sickening details of his descriptions of what he would like to do was disturbing to say the least. It reminded me of how witch confessions/trials/executions have been recorded. I am an abuse survivor and Gary’s body language and tone of voice reminded me of the man I eventually had arrested and Gary instilled fear and dread in me. How many people have turned away from veganism because of him? Hopefully not as many as have become vegans but I can’t help but wonder.

    Violence is not the answer, as vegans aren’t we trying to stop the violence to animals? People are animals as well. I am very sad because as I said I thought I had found someone I could support but anyone who can have such detailed fantasies of violence isn’t the person for me to follow, if others disagree then that is their choice. Don’t get me wrong, the abuse of animals is wrong and it must be stopped, I don’t however agree that everyone who eats meat deserves violence against them. Most of them are brainwashed and deserve our sympathy and support whilst they learn the truth. Like all of us I am working quietly in my own sphere, talking to people and helping them realise the horrific truth rather than the comforting lies they have believed up until now.

    I guess I now need to wait for the vitriol and abuse to come my way for not agreeing with some of you. Don’t worry about that, I have a lot of experience in that area and can handle it. Alternatively you could look deeper and decide if you are actually reading what I am saying and understanding or if you are having a knee jerk reaction.

    I wish everyone well and look forward to the day that animals are free, in their own natural environments and people are happy and healthy.

    • Thanks for the well-thought-out comment, and I am sincerely sorry for what you experienced at the hands of an abuser. I can only imagine how triggering Gary Y must have been for you. You are correct in saying that violence is NOT the answer, especially when we as vegans are against violence! If you are looking for a vegan who does excellent educational work and who is worthy of your support, try reading the works of Gary Francione. An easy one to start with is Eat Like You Care, which he co-authored with his partner Anna Charlton. He has also written several other more theoretical works, like Rain Without Thunder and Your Child or the Dog: An Introduction to Animal Rights, among others. He also has the http://www.abolitionistapproach.com website or you can like his Facebook page.
      Thank you again for stopping here and lending your voice of reason. There are a lot of jackasses out there in the “animal rights” movement–some of them preach violence, which is wrong on every level.

  38. There are some really good comments here but I just wanted to address the Gary bashing. I feel that Gary Yourofsky has earned the right to get angry and frustrated, after all, the man has literally put his body and life on the line for truth and animal rights. It’s like bashing your head against a brick wall trying to show people what is happening in the world with these innocent animals but unlike the brick wall, it doesn’t feel good when you stop, there is only frustration and yes at times anger which is what Gary must feel constantly. The thing that confounds me is that as a Vegan I’m always being accused of being radical, weird and even threatening and this is from the people that support slavery, rape, imprisonment and murder, if other Vegans turned on me, I’d be devastated.
    Instead of knocking him, lets all work together for a cruelty free Vegan World.

    • Thanks for the comment. To clarify, being critical of Gary Y’s approach to educating others about animal rights is not “bashing”. As an animal rights advocate myself, I am well aware of how utterly frustrating it can be to deal with human stupidity. However, that does NOT EVER give someone the right to be violent or speak violently. Being frustrated and angry about animal exploitation continuing unchecked around us is in NO WAY a justification to advocate violence against those exploiting animals. Harming or killing those people won’t solve anything. It does nothing but make animal rights advocates look like unbalanced lunatics capable of violence to their own kind. It’s never acceptable. And again I reiterate, was Gary Y born vegan? Did he just come into this world with his vegan principles firmly in place? No? I thought not. And yet no one did violence to him to get him to become vegan. So what gives him the right to advocate violence to others? Nothing. Calm, reasonable, creative vegan education is the answer. I am not knocking him. I am criticizing his violent, harmful approach to what should be a peaceful movement.

  39. Yes I totally agree but then, Gary Francione admits that after over thirty years of his creative vegan education, little has changed. Maybe Gary Yourofsky is just stirring the pot? In the advertising game they say any publicity is good publicity. I know from my experience that unless you put something in front of most people that touches a nerve, they won’t listen, think or talk about anything and are happy to live in a world of total ignorance.
    As I said, I totally agree with you, I don’t want to see any living thing suffer. So tell me how to get through to people? I approach most on health issues, their health issues and they don’t believe there would be any benefits to being Vegan. Bottom line is, they don’t care about their own health or lives so they’ll never care about animals. I don’t believe you can teach empathy.
    I think if you could come up with something that creates attention and gets through to people, that would be great, because ‘Calm, reasonable, creative vegan education’ is making little impact. I love constructive criticism but come up with some that works. Another saying I’ve always followed is ‘To keep doing the same thing but expect a different result is the first sign of insanity’
    Come up with something that works and tell the world.

    • Francione also often shares emails he has received from people who have seen or heard him speak or who have read his books, particularly Eat Like You Care it seems, and they tell him that they went vegan because of his words.
      How to get through to people? Keep talking. Just because change is not immediate and dramatic does not mean no one is listening.
      Most people already have the moral impulse–they don’t want to see animals get hurt for no reason at all. I don’t think it’s true that people don’t care. I think they do, but I think that for some, it takes time for them to get it through their thick skulls that they can change.
      It is working. You cannot seriously tell me that the world isn’t shifting toward veganism…..the word vegan comes up more now than even ten years ago. More and more vegan products are available, and more and more people have heard the word and know what it means.
      I think it is utterly unreasonable to think that there is going to be one “way” to get through to people to affect immediate change.
      And even if there is, Gary Y ain’t it.

  40. So many different takes on what veganism is and how to create change!! Its enough to put off the most passionate animal rights advocate. Could it be confusion which is slowing down a wider change to non- speciesism. I realise that tag( Non Speciesist) also has its vulnerable spots…treading on ants , killing ticks and the rest but I like the non hierarchical approach to human and non – human animal rights. However to achieve change we all need to find common ground between baby steps and revolution and work together.

    • Please don’t come here and advocate baby steps. You’ve created a false dichotomy–it’s not either baby steps or revolution. In fact, there is creative, non-violent vegan education, which is right in the middle.
      There is only one “take” on what veganism is–it is about not using non-human animals as resources, just because we can or we like how they taste or it’s just convenient.
      THAT is what veganism is. There are no “takes”. Anything else is bullshit welfarism, which is selling out the animals.

      • I don’t remember advocating baby steps! What I said was “we all need to find common ground BETWEEN baby steps and revolution and work together.” Which is what I think you yourself are advocating. I am commenting as someone who is still earnestly trying to find a pathway to help change our cultural “take” on the place of non human animals on the planet. Direct Action, Animal welfare, animal rights, abolitionism, Veganism. it can be very confusing for a beginner animals rights advocate . I am not a beginner by the way but I still read and reflect all the time. Right now I like the principle of non speciesism as it has parallels with social issues that most people are or have been concerned with ..slavery, child labour, sexism. It makes sense of the idea of extending the circle of compassion. I am angered by religious heritage of “hierarchy” that permeates all cultures( including Christianity in western culture ). and blame it in large part for our superior attitude as a species. Although people will still criticise and ridicule at times the non- speciesism (non hierarchical ) stance on the grounds of hypocrisy ..(.mosquitoes, fleas, ticks, germs etc that most vegans will not suffer qualms about killing,) it still seems the best and most rational basis for argument to me right now. The word Veganism seems to be stretched in all different directions to suit all sorts of interpretations – as is your definition of not using animals as resources. There is such a plethora of commodities containing animal ingredients, -petrol, concrete, paint, tyres, or activities that exploit animals in some way , , ,pets, guide dogs , even bees, or animals that are inconvenient to human activities such as snails ( there is no humane way of doing so ) , I’m sure you know them all .So where does one draw the line and still retain the label of Vegan. And all this is overwhelming and confusing for many. I just wish some rational common ground could be agreed and acted upon the hundreds of groups and individuals that advocate for our fellow species. Perhaps this is going to take a long time or may never happen at all. Arguing amongst ourselves seems such a waste of time and at the same time a confusing deterrent for many people who might otherwise become activists. And by the way I disagree that interest and advocacy in animals rights is growing. Still only one percent of the population are recognised as vegans and there is a strong case that animal WELFARE improvements (whatever they are!) actually hold back a move towards animal RIGHTS in so much as people become more complacent about the RIGHTS of animals by salving their conscience by eating what they believe to be humanely grown meat eggs and dairy.

  41. “So where does one draw the line and still retain the label of Vegan. And all this is overwhelming and confusing for many.”
    This is what I’ve been talking about. The “label” vegan MEANS something. Words mean things, and vegan means something. We need to take back the word, which was coined by Donald Watson, and show people what it means. It doesn’t mean being vegan when it’s convenient. It doesn’t mean being vegan only when no one else is around. It doesn’t mean riding horses or eating honey. Some people are using it to mean those things, and those people are wrong. Vegans need to keep pointing that out, loudly and publicly.
    Where does one “draw the line”? At exploiting animals. Obviously it is impossible in today’s world to be a “perfect” vegan, whatever that means. No one has ever said otherwise, which is something I have already addressed on this blog.
    Being vegan means doing the best we can to not participate in animal exploitation. It’s not complicated or overwhelming.
    You know who is complicating things and making people feel overwhelmed? The welfarists. On that, at least, we agree.
    People who call out Ricky Gervais or Gary Youforsky are not “arguing amongst ourselves”. We are pointing out hypocrisy, which has no place in this movement. I personally don’t want to see any more “activists” like those two, so if what I am doing deters others from being like Gervais or Youforsky, GOOD.
    Regardless of what you say, it IS happening. There is evidence everywhere. We don’t need everyone to go vegan this instant. In fact, it only takes a relatively small percentage of the population to decide that something is no longer socially acceptable before it actually becomes socially unacceptable.
    If you choose to believe that nothing is changing, well I disagree and I kind of feel sorry for you. Lots of positive change is happening, every day.
    Have a great day.

    • Thanks for your reply. I agree we are basically on the same wavelength. I think Welfarism is growing at the expense of veganism or speciesism. Its difficult to know the difference between what is hypocrisy and what is being an imperfect vegan or being an imperfect activist. Doing the “best we can” can allow for many weaknesses and excuses. The Oxford dictionary defines it as “strictly vegetarian “. That’s one of several reasons why I think the word “Non- Speciesist” may be more useful. Or perhaps we need to redefine the word “Vegan” and get it in the dictionary. Thanks for your sympathy( ! ) Yes I do feel very sad about the narcissism and blind arrogance of the human race.

  42. “Doing the “best we can” can allow for many weaknesses and excuses. ” Not if we, as actual vegans, stand up and talk about what “best we can” means. When someone says, “I’m doing the best I can but I can’t give up cheese”, we call them out. When someone says “I’m doing the best I can but I’m poor”, we call them out. “Best we can” should never, ever mean “baby steps”. I agree with you that the stupid Welfare movement has conflated the two and is causing some damage to the animal RIGHTS movement.
    However, I have to say that it is typical of welfarists to say “we have to stop fighting amongst ourselves”, which is perhaps why I was a bit peeved by your initial response. Apologies for that–I see you are not a welfarist.
    I am not sure that “non-speciesist” is a great term to use, because we would have to explain what the hell it means. I dunno–I think vegan is a perfect term but we vegans have to be very vocal about taking it back from the shit-head welfarists using it for their own nefarious purposes.
    At any rate, I understand your sadness over the narcissism and blind arrogance of the human race–people can be absolute shit sometimes. But please remember that you and I were once like that, and WE changed. If we can, THEY can. Hold onto that, even when the idiots are “mmmm bacon”ing you.
    I really appreciate your comments. Thank you! 🙂

  43. This blokes energy is one of peace and harmony, he makes the most amazing and valid points that my meat eating friends go to me “I have no answer other than fark he is onto it”.
    His passion and love far outweighs his frusturation and anger.
    To want to push this man away from speaking about veganism and stop harming all beings is madness.
    His honesty I admire, if someone killed your daughter/wife/husband would you not have a thought of retaliating? Or would you give the person a hug?
    Maybe Gary isn’t enlightened as the Dalai Lama but he sure is an awesome person who’s heart and cause is incredible.

    • Oh for fuck’s sake. “Retaliating”. Bro,someone killed SIX fucking members of my family, keeping two young girls alive for a bit to rape. Do I want “retaliation”? No, because I understand the difference between justice and revenge, and I understand that if I were to kill him I’d be every bit as fucking awful as him. So please spare me the bullshit. You have created a false dichotomy–there are not only two choices, hug the guy or retaliate. There are other options.

      As I have said before a hundred fucking times, Gary fucking Yourofsky or however he fucking spells it WAS NOT BORN A FUCKING VEGAN. OK, bro? He wasn’t. He was like every other fucking nonvegan before he got a clue and went vegan. And now because he’s vegan, he thinks it’s okay to spew violence and vitriol to “get others to go vegan”.

      That is NOT the only way to get people to go vegan. A person does not have to scream, yell, and throw chairs and get angry to get others to go vegan.

      So stop coming onto this goddamned blog and telling me how fucking awesome this asshole is and how many people he’s gotten to go vegan. He’s violent. Vegans are against violence. What the ever loving fuck is so hard to comprehend here????

    • Also, fuck the Dalai Lama–dude eats meat.

  44. You are wrong, he is not violent towards non-vegans (meat-eaters, vegetarians, hunters…).

    He is violent towards ANYBODY (could be a vegan, like me) who is not a bootlicker emailing him or posting on his FB site something like: OH, GY, I love you. I was BLIND. You brought me into the LIGHT. You are and will always be my mentor: thanks for opening my eyes. I am going to share ALL your videos RIGHT NOW and you can consider me the best of your bootlickers.

    Evidence:

    1) Own experience:

    (It seems the post did not catch the attention of many FB-“friends”; maybe he is not THAT famous, or perhaps it’s because I only have 69; a bit irrelevant though).

    Observations:

    He says to me: “If I ever run into you, I am gonna pummel you until your face is completely broken”.

    And now let us use some rhetorical questions: would he have said that if I were a girl?; would he have said that if I were some kind of Bodybuilder?…

    Nope… In the first case, his violence would be easily condemned by the social (occidental) norm: violence against women is much worse than violence against men.

    Second case: the reason is too obvious.

    BUT he saw my profile pic (“oh, a thin GUY”) and automatically were executed the same social norms that any idiotic violent human being of our society would integrate in his cognitive structures: this guy is weaker, I am stronger -> I CAN abuse, so I am going to THREATEN him.

    He tries to take profit of the situation, thinking he is more “powerful”, “stronger” or whatever compared to me, the WEAK (I would like to see though, how he does TRY to break my face…).

    Wait, aren’t the most of the vegans fighting for or at least “defending” the animals? Aren’t humans ANIMALS? He would call it “self-defense”… But you can read how aggressive and “dangerous” my “attack” was. A suggestion to improve his website.

    He also calls me “troll” even knowing I am not, but obviously it is a nice justification for himself to be aggressive and threaten me.

    2) This is a comment on his FB-site, responding to a girl that basically claims some of her vegan friends are shit because they told her to be less aggressive when trying to “convert” meat-eaters.

    The Real Gary Yourofsky:

    “Sadly, MOST vegans suck. Tell those vegans to shit the fuck up and go to hell! Seriously. I’ve been at war with the majority of this movement for 19 years! The mainstream vegans are pacifist politicians, which means they are liars and psychos! And they have turned MLK’s & Gandhi’s pacifism into INACTION, doing absolutely nothing and coddling the abusers. They fail to realize that both CONFRONTED the abusers and REFUSED to be silent and went to jail because of civil disobedience OVER & OVER again. Anyway, NEVER EVER let those vegans stand in YOUR way of making the world a better palce for the animals. And understand one more thing about pacifism. Pacifism ONLY makes pacifists FEEL BETTER ABOUT THEMSELVES. It does NOT make the victims safer, freer and happier”.

    We ARE PSYCHOS. Don’t forget it. And you are doing NOTHING if you don’t do exactly what he did/does, or if you don’t share precisely HIS videos and speeches.* Actually you have to get arrested if you want to be considered a non-passive/lazy vegan. Any kind of pacific veganism is shit. Go vegan, but go vegan being an aggressive bigot like GY… and THEN you will be doing something. Does not matter how much accurate info you tell to your friends or any meat-eaters, you are just a “politician”, liar and psycho if you don’t do it that way…

    *Which are great – the most part -, but almost any vegan psychologist, doctor, biologist and/or anthropologist could improve them A LOT; I had many ideas for him myself, even though he is a “retired activist” already.

    3) http://i.imgur.com/epv3uMd.jpg

    This shows the dumbest reasoning ever (I am not even going to comment about Palestinians and Israelis): ANY non-human animal suffering/abused is WORSE than ANY human suffering/abused or whatever, therefore one should NOT DO A SHIT for ANY human (showing with this reasoning the perfect excuse to be violent to humans; he is REALLY kind to his fans though, more than my grandmother to myself).

    I guess we are allowed to kick him to death without hearing a single claim (only his repeated “self-defense”), because he is a human and the ONLY thing that really matters are the other animals…

    There are more “proofs”… Just check out his FB-site and you will realize this guy is far from being the perfect Messiah of the Veganism. He is just the most famous and popular vegan, which is NOT the same; there are a bunch of vegan youtubers or just writers who are much more intelligent and constructive talking about veganism and the right arguments to convert people, or counterarguments for the excuses of the meat-eaters. But… they did not get money from PETA, they are not so polemic (which in this society means: nobody is going to talk about you…) and they will never be so famous.

    So we got this rage-bigot and his manichaeism (don’t forget only he and his fans are “good persons”; the evil is inside the rest…, even other vegans) as “hero” of the Veganism… Well, could be much worse. At least, from a pragmatical point of view, he is converting many meat-eaters, even though some of them are going to be… like this:

    “I regularly fantasize about cutting the scalp of vegetarians like in Inglorious Bastereds, so insects can slowly eat their brains then gutting them and having wolves eat them from the inside out alive”. (A comment of a girl who is one of his most devoted fans/bootlickers.)

    By the way, agree with you about “pets” and “owning” a non-human animal (or any animal, obviously). Does not matter if the animal loves you. One would be choosing “his path” for him/her, instead of leaving him/her free. I will never ever “own” any animal (I “had” cats, which I regret a lot).

  45. You are wrong, he is not violent towards non-vegans (meat-eaters, vegetarians, hunters…).

    He is violent towards ANYBODY (could be a vegan, like me) who is not a bootlicker emailing him or posting on his FB site something like: OH, GY, I love you. I was BLIND. You brought me into the LIGHT. You are and will always be my mentor: thanks for opening my eyes. I am going to share ALL your videos RIGHT NOW and you can consider me the best of your bootlickers.

    Evidence:

    1) Own experience:

    (It seems the post did not catch the attention of many FB-“friends”; maybe he is not THAT famous, or perhaps it’s because I only have 69; a bit irrelevant though).

    Observations:

    He says to me: “If I ever run into you, I am gonna pummel you until your face is completely broken”.

    And now let us use some rhetorical questions: would he have said that if I were a girl?; would he have said that if I were some kind of Bodybuilder?…

    Nope… In the first case, his violence would be easily condemned by the social (occidental) norm: violence against women is much worse than violence against men.

    Second case: the reason is too obvious.

    BUT he saw my profile pic (“oh, a thin GUY”) and automatically were executed the same social norms that any idiotic violent human being of our society would integrate in his cognitive structures: this guy is weaker, I am stronger -> I CAN abuse, so I am going to THREATEN him.

    He tries to take profit of the situation, thinking he is more “powerful”, “stronger” or whatever compared to me, the WEAK (I would like to see though, how he does TRY to break my face…).

    Wait, aren’t the most of the vegans fighting for or at least “defending” the animals? Aren’t humans ANIMALS? He would call it “self-defense”… But you can read how aggressive and “dangerous” my “attack” was. A suggestion to improve his website.

    He also calls me “troll” even knowing I am not, but obviously it is a nice justification for himself to be aggressive and threaten me.

    2) This is a comment on his FB-site, responding to a girl that basically claims some of her vegan friends are shit because they told her to be less aggressive when trying to “convert” meat-eaters.

    The Real Gary Yourofsky:

    “Sadly, MOST vegans suck. Tell those vegans to shit the fuck up and go to hell! Seriously. I’ve been at war with the majority of this movement for 19 years! The mainstream vegans are pacifist politicians, which means they are liars and psychos! And they have turned MLK’s & Gandhi’s pacifism into INACTION, doing absolutely nothing and coddling the abusers. They fail to realize that both CONFRONTED the abusers and REFUSED to be silent and went to jail because of civil disobedience OVER & OVER again. Anyway, NEVER EVER let those vegans stand in YOUR way of making the world a better palce for the animals. And understand one more thing about pacifism. Pacifism ONLY makes pacifists FEEL BETTER ABOUT THEMSELVES. It does NOT make the victims safer, freer and happier”.

    We ARE PSYCHOS. Don’t forget it. And you are doing NOTHING if you don’t do exactly what he did/does, or if you don’t share precisely HIS videos and speeches.* Actually you have to get arrested if you want to be considered a non-passive/lazy vegan. Any kind of pacific veganism is shit. Go vegan, but go vegan being an aggressive bigot like GY… and THEN you will be doing something. Does not matter how much accurate info you tell to your friends or any meat-eaters, you are just a “politician”, liar and psycho if you don’t do it that way…

    *Which are great – the most part -, but almost any vegan psychologist, doctor, biologist and/or anthropologist could improve them A LOT; I had many ideas for him myself, even though he is a “retired activist” already.

    3) http://i.imgur.com/epv3uMd.jpg

    This shows the dumbest reasoning ever (I am not even going to comment about Palestinians and Israelis): ANY non-human animal suffering/abused is WORSE than ANY human suffering/abused or whatever, therefore one should NOT DO A SHIT for ANY human (showing with this reasoning the perfect excuse to be violent to humans; he is REALLY kind to his fans though, more than my grandmother to myself).

    I guess we are allowed to kick him to death without hearing a single claim (only his repeated “self-defense”), because he is a human and the ONLY thing that really matters are the other animals…

    There are more “proofs”… Just check out his FB-site and you will realize this guy is far from being the perfect Messiah of the Veganism. He is just the most famous and popular vegan, which is NOT the same; there are a bunch of vegan youtubers or just writers who are much more intelligent and constructive talking about veganism and the right arguments to convert people, or counterarguments for the excuses of the meat-eaters. But… they did not get money from PETA, they are not so polemic (which in this society means: nobody is going to talk about you…) and they will never be so famous.

    So we got this rage-bigot and his manichaeism (don’t forget only he and his fans are “good persons”; the evil is inside the rest…, even other vegans) as “hero” of the Veganism… Well, could be much worse. At least, from a pragmatical point of view, he is converting many meat-eaters, even though some of them are going to be… like this:

    “I regularly fantasize about cutting the scalp of vegetarians like in Inglorious Bastereds, so insects can slowly eat their brains then gutting them and having wolves eat them from the inside out alive”. (A comment of a girl who is one of his most devoted fans/bootlickers.)

    By the way, agree with you about “pets” and “owning” a non-human animal (or any animal, obviously). Does not matter if the animal loves you. One would be choosing “his/her path” for him/her, instead of leaving him/her free. I will never ever “own” any animal (I “had” cats, which I regret a lot).

    • I stand corrected. Apologies, as I did know some of his vitriol and hatred toward other vegans. I love how all the GY supporters rant about how we should not fight amongst ourselves, but that is exactly what GY does and advocates.
      Thanks for sharing all that–it’s really disturbing and I wish more people would get that.
      As to the pet owning–I have rescued a few animals, cats and dogs, and will continue to do so. While it is immoral to “own” animals, it is also immoral to not step up and rescue them, give them the best life we can, and advocate for an end to all breeding. We have a moral obligation to rescue.
      Thanks for commenting–it is very much appreciated. I’m always glad to meet a like-minded individual who can think for him/herself. 🙂

      • You are welcome. Obviously I am not going to start a “campaign” against him or anything like that. It would be stupid and a waste of time and energy. I was just looking for a “good place” to leave my own thoughts, evidences and reasoning…, and I liked your article.

        Thanks for being brave and write it. Probably many of his supporters have attacked you verbally (I have not read all the comments, only some of them).

        You have added a really good point (one more contradiction): “hey, it is wrong to attack other vegans!! Vegans should be a team and support each other when attacking these idiotic meat-eaters… Well, only we -GY and his fanclub- are allowed to do it!!” ^^ And if you don’t agree… GY will break you face. 😀

        Regarding to “pets”, what you do has nothing to do with the way people “own” animals (slaves, including even “happy” slaves). You rescue animals who are innocent VICTIMS of HUMANS. They are not “natural” victims (you are not saving zebras from lions or crocodiles).

        Anyway… Hopefully more people will read your blog and won’t take this guy blindly as the “perfect Guru” of the Veganism. Vegans should promote VEGANISM: ideas, arguments, info. NOT a PERSON (specially this one…).

        Best wishes 🙂

        Martin PG

  46. Truly if any are to be compassionate and rational then the path of understanding all our relationships in this world and actively choosing the most effective decisions with impartiality is most fundamental. Meaning if we are to be in any possible position of any creature that our decisions would be for the best outcome of all living things. There is no need to be caught up in everything that isn’t this truth, they are only distractions from this fundamental. It is each humans responsibility to reason for themselves and decide their lives. There are no guru’s. Only showers and tellers. The truth is regardless of them.

    Yall on that shit loose doe, generalizations kill me. This is comedy shit. Who’s serious here? I’m laughing. The truth is beyond good and bad. Beyond us and the thin veneer of perception that keeps us separate. So what’s good? Good is petty, it’s human. Why not just enjoy the ride? We’re just passengers for only a short while. hahahaha.

    But then how do you enjoy this ride. The reasonable, rational and compassionate person cannot. They will suffer unless their life is in the state as I first described. I am nothing but a petty human. Who seeks good only to fulfil myself. For that is what good is. It’s relative to me.

    Altruism is a mirage hiding the fact that rational people living otherwise would hate themselves. It’s okay we are selfish but we can not remain stupid and selfish forever.

    Rational selfishness! Not just for your bank account, your health or beauty, how others think of you or social status. No fuck that. Those things are low even for the petty human. No integrity and honesty, the only things we can give ourselves is the highest and most selfish thing. The only means within my scope to diminish this seemingly depraved and empty suffering of existence.

    Live fully as yourself, with the best of your mind and spirit intact. it feels good.

    I read most of the comments and the article and truly don’t have much to add to any of that. I even forget why I’m here. Maybe we can be friends.

    Yo hit me up I love to chat 🙂

  47. If you have seen what Gary Yourofsky saw, you would have thought the same! Gary has been in slaughterhouses. Please understand that! He witnessed animals dying! When he tries to explain it to the people they won’t listen because they have no empathy! We should be thanking him because he has balls unlike us. He is actually doing something! Gary is the best and he is my hero!!!!

    • I have seen Gary speak. I have listened to his words, and as I have said a hundred times on here already, much of what he says has merit. HOWEVER–if you would read what I say, you’d understand that it is hypocritical and unproductive to couch what should be a message of PEACE in such hate-filled vitriol as Gary Y does. I am NOT going to thank him, and we don’t need “balls”. Do you even understand how sexist that statement is? “He is actually doing something”. Fuck off–and the rest of us are just doing nothing, is that it? Talking to people about veganism, educating where and when we can, is just doing nothing, is it? I disagree. Gary is NOT “the best” and if he’s your hero you should give your head a good hard shake. Now run along.

  48. Few people listen to the pleas of “peaceful” animal activist talk and are resentful towards vegans. I read that the number of vegans is actually dropping and certainly the number of animals being tortured compromised and slaughtered is definitely rising. This would indicate that the 40 year long vegan movement is achieving nothing. Non vegans almost never get to the stage of being interested enough to even to question their lifestyles. . How many of you continue to be encircled by plates of animal flesh when you eat out with your family and friends? How many of your friends refuse to look at the truth? This is why the public need to be confronted by Direct Action techniques such as used by the civil rights movement ( and others such as the suffragettes and many other social activist groups) who finally at last achieved their aims by peaceful civil rights demonstrations via “disturbances” and “disruptions” Their idea was that even by creating anger amongst those imprisoned by medieval mainstream world views such as pro slavery, sexism, anti unions, that they gained media attention and instigated widespread discussion resulting in the questioning of old values. I believe this is the only avenue left for Animal Rights activists to take. Too many billionaires making money from animal products control the media and too many religions still perpetuate the medieval views of 2000 years ago. Such forces manipulate attitudes of the general public. 70 Billion animals tortured and slaughtered every single year is too great an atrocity to continue speaking peacefully about it.!!! We need anger, motivation and action NOW.
    Joyless Vegan. The anger that comes across from your hate speech and sarcasm should serve you well in motivating you to organise some direct action Animal rights activism events!!
    I am not a particular fan of G.Y but It seems a shame that so much energy and time …even having a facebook page devoted to it … is going into being preoccupied with criticising someone who rightly or wrongly has in fact inspired many to take notice of him. More dare I say than most here.

    • Please show some statistics to back up your claims. “Few people listen to the pleas of ‘peaceful’ animal activists”–really? Gary Francione regularly gets feedback from non-vegans who have taken the time to write to him after reading his books, particularly “Eat Like You Care”, or his other writings or after seeing his lectures, and they thank him and indicate they are going vegan because of what he has said or wrote. As does Colleen Patrick-Goudreau. And Francione, whatever you may think of the man himself, has a great message that many people end up embracing because it makes sense and is not couched in anger, hatred, vitriol and violence.
      “the 40 year long vegan movement is achieving nothing”. I call bullshit. Sorry, but even a paltry ten years ago, the word vegan was not common-place. Now I can walk into many establishments and find vegan options, or a full vegan menu, or a plethora of vegan products. So pardon me, but I really do call bullshit on your assertions. I do acknowledge, however, that the animal WELFARE movement is causing harm to the animal RIGHTS movement by making people feel better about “humane” products and focusing on “better treatment”. I don’t think you actually say that in your comment, but welfarism is very damaging to the rights movement.
      Please don’t come here promoting DxE. They are a horse-shit movement I have no tolerance for. Standing outside Chipotle yelling at people about eating chicken and talking about Snowball is just a stupid tactic. It does nothing.
      MY hate speech? Are you fucking kidding me? I am not the one saying that non-vegans should be violently raped for wearing fur. I am not the one who writes out disturbing torture-porn fantasies involving skewers and eyeballs. I am glad to hear you are not a particular fan of Gary Y. Whew. Wonderful. But you are one of those idiots who likes to whine about how we shouldn’t be so “divisive” by critically thinking and calling other “vegans” or “animal rights activists” out on their behaviour. But there is nothing wrong in doing so, and indeed we must. I’m not “wasting” energy or time–I am trying to get others to understand why Gary Y’s approach is not a good one and why he is not some kind of vegan saviour we should all just blindly follow because he gives some good speeches. If you can’t understand that, you need to read more instead of wasting time and energy coming onto my blog and talking about things you clearly have no understanding of and no wish to understand better.
      Run along now.

      • actually your whole attitude and vocabulary are as aggressive as any i have heard anywhere. you are far worse than Gary. As for statistics. It was in 1944 that the word vegan was first used and the movement began. After 77 years the petcentage of vegans is 1% as the link below reports. i should point out that the statistics were gathered by a vegetarian organisation so not likely to be a negatively biased statistic. people who have been involved in animal rights for decades are understandably becoming discouraged by the gentle role model approach while 10 000 sentient beings are tortured and murdered every minute. if these were human children being sent to the gas chambers yoy would not be content with saying passive activism will achieve your aim some tome in the distant future. i really think your antagonism to others is more damaging to the cause of animal rights than a dozen Gary yourofskys . You say you are against other more revolutionary tactics. I wonder if you have ever read about its success in the hands of MLK and other heroes of successful civil rights issues. http://www.vegetariantimes.com/article/vegetarianism-in-america/

      • Actually, I disagree. I don’t say that non-vegans should get raped for wearing fur, so…yeah, I disagree. I am fully aware of the civil rights movement, thanks, but what works for one thing does not necessarily work for another. But you have your beliefs, to which you are entitled. Not sure why you are coming here to argue with me, but you do you.

      • You wonder why i come here? Because you provide absolutely no logic or evidence that veganism alone will stop Speciesism. you are angry and devisive about the whole issue. in turn I wonder why YOU are here spending hours of your time presenting an unconvincing and antagonistic attack on one person. Perhaps it is a simple case of envy on your part that Yourofsky has a large following. Dirct Action has been the successful tool for EVERY social change that has ever occurred. Nothing else has ever changed the status quo.

      • I call bullshit on any “statistics” on veganism. They usually involve self-reporting, and many people who are not vegan will report themselves as being vegan. I don’t know if there is any way to actually arrive at an accurate number of vegans on this planet, and I don’t tend to really preoccupy myself with that. I go more by the overall societal shift I see going on around me, such as more people knowing what the word means, more products available, more restaurants acknowledging us, more vegan businesses popping up, etc. So spew whatever stats you want, but I don’t think they are accurate or really tell us much about how the paradigm IS shifting.
        If you want to insist on calling critical thinking “antagonism”, go ahead. I disagree.

      • Also, veganism is not “passive activism”. Just…..no. You are so very wrong there.

      • Look, if you think that standing outside Chipotle yelling at people that eating there is murder is making the issue of animal rights clear, then you do you. If you think that Gary Y is some sort of vegan hero, I disagree and I have stated why here. I also said that much of what he says has merit, but saying that nonvegans deserve to be brutally raped is not fucking okay. So you do whatever the hell it is that pleases you, and if you want to go scream about Snowball at Chipotle, go right the fuck ahead. I am not stopping you. All I am doing is questioning the efficacy of those tactics, which don’t actually EDUCATE anyone about veganism.
        And yes, veganism will be the way to end speciesism. I am not sure why you are questioning that.

    • How very revolutionary. Except I don’t support the ALF and its tactics. While I agree that capitalism is a problem, we have no choice but to work within it to achieve anything for animals. It actually really simplifies things–stop buying animal products and fuelling demand, and supply will decrease as well. When the capitalists of the world realize the potential in vegan products, they will shift that way. Is that the perfect way to animal rights? Probably not, but it’s the system we are in. We don’t need a “revolution”. We need peaceful, creative, grass-roots advocacy, which is already happening each and every day. It may not be fast enough for you revolutionaries, but it’s how we are going to succeed. And that is all wrapped up in non-violence. It has to be. ALF tactics have no place in such a movement.

  49. Today I got time… The Joyless Vegan, let me try, please; despite my crappy English.

    Calling it “Direct Action” all the time and other bullshit, Denise, won’t make it prettier. It is VIOLENCE what you defend. And you are defending it ONLY because it is not towards YOU. Only verbal VIOLENCE perhaps (for now, even though he had already some issues with a reporter), but still VIOLENCE. If you believe in VIOLENCE as the correct way…, at least use the correct noun. “Yes, I think only VIOLENCE will stop Speciesism”.

    OPINION NOTED. Thank you. But you are WRONG.

    1) Comparing MLK to somebody like Gary Gangsterousky is like comparing a ballet dancer to a… truck. Do you imagine MLK saying:

    a. “If I ever run into you, I am gonna pummel you until your face is completely broken.
    Fuck off and get lost TROLL!”

    To a vegan (would be some Afro-American for MLK) who just wanted to make a suggestion.

    b. Palestinians and Arab people in general are pretty much s***… (but all Israelis are angels, of course). After that he said he is a “misanthrope” and hates all humans, just to look like a… more “logical” person. Sadly we all know he loves himself and his fans (did not work).

    c. “The most of the vegans (this would be black people for MLK) suck…, they are pacific politicians, liars and psychos”. Insinuating only he and his fans are “REAL vegans”… doing the right thing…, being active (he really wants his fans to think pacifism = INactivism, and it seems you really “swallowed” this).

    d. “F*** human rights”… Being a white man in USA with a home, his food, PC, TV… Sure, fuck them. But we all can suppose he would have not said that being… let’s say a refugee from Syria… Don’t you think?

    Don’t forget MLK was actually against the war in Vietnam, for all the victims: black, white and Vietnamese people; not just the victims of HIS cause.

    Extract of a speech (Martin Luther King), explaining one of the 8 reasons why he was against Vietnam War:

    “…And as I ponder the madness of Vietnam and search within myself for ways to understand and respond in compassion, my mind goes constantly to the people of that peninsula. I speak now not of the soldiers of each side, not of the ideologies of the Liberation Front, not of the junta in Saigon, but simply of the people who have been living under the curse of war for almost three continuous decades now. I think of them, too, because it is clear to me that there will be no meaningful solution there until some attempt is made to know them and hear their broken cries…

    …They know they must move on or be destroyed by our bombs. So they go, primarily women and children and the aged. They watch as we poison their water, as we kill a million acres of their crops. They must weep as the bulldozers roar through their areas preparing to destroy the precious trees. They wander into the hospitals with at least twenty casualties from American firepower for one Vietcong-inflicted injury. So far we may have killed a million of them, mostly children. They wander into the towns and see thousands of the children, homeless, without clothes, running in packs on the streets like ANIMALS”. –> At this point GY would be insulting MLK, AT LEAST.

    This man was not ONLY worried about Afro-Americans (“HIS” victims). He was worried about any victim (sadly not non-human animals I guess, but that was too much for those years).

    e. “To understand our situation, whites (MLK) / non-vegans (GY) should be raped blablabla…”… Actually he asseverates he wishes it, and then tries to find an excuse saying he wishes the same for “rapists”. And some disgusting execution that I don’t remember. WTF.

    It is NOT moral to rape a rapist, and/or kill him, because you would be committing exactly the same immoral act. It is a clear ethical contradiction. And he was a meat-eater, concluding he should have been raped as well… Facepalm.

    Please, tell me… WHAT the HELL is there in common between an intelligent, peaceful and logical man (consequent with HIS Ethic and cause), who defended peace beyond everything…, and this aggressive hypocrite (GY)?? Where is YOUR logic?? And how THE FUCK can you say JV is aggressive because of her vocabulary and sarcasm (she was pretty patient keeping in mind all YOUR attacks), BUT defend GY?? If JV is aggressive in your eyes, then GY would TRAUMATIZE you. But obviously he was NOT aggressive to YOU and this is why you DON’T care. I will repeat this in my post several times – hopefully you will understand it.

    YOU want EVIDENCE from the Joyless Vegan? Are you KIDDING me? Where is YOURS? I have NEVER heard someone saying he is vegan because some aggressive bigot threatened him, wished he/she was raped or said “FUCK your human rights and Arab people, ONLY animals matter”… It is quite the OPPOSITE. Statements like “Direct Action has been the successful tool for EVERY social change that has ever occurred”, keeping in mind WHAT YOU mean with the euphemism “Direct Action”, shows clearly you have NO clue about Sociology and Social Psychology (exactly as your beloved bigot). Every day there are less homophobes, racists, sexists… Still many in the world (sadly), but less day after day. Why? Learn a bit about Symbolic Interactionism, Education and social norms. EVERY INTERACTION matters (more or less, being every change more or less observable, but EACH one matters). A society is much more complex than a “homogenic mass” of people who change “YES/NOT”. OMG.

    “He converts a lot of people every day anyway”. Probably you are still thinking something like this…

    But your pragmatic point of view, as I said, is NOT moral, because any “Ethic” should have a “continuum” and general application for every single person/sentient being (this is why I say MLK was logical; don’t judge him as non-vegan because he did not have the amount of info we had), defining as moral or immoral each act by its “universal rule/rules” (the logic of the concrete Ethic itself).

    It is definitely not about only one group of people/sentient beings of your wish (we would not be talking about Ethics in that case, but PERSONAL interests). IF you DEFEND ANIMALS ONLY FROM A PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE AND NOT A (CONSISTENTLY LOGICAL) ETHIC, NOBODY WILL TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY. You would still be an egoist, who would just personally like more some animals than others, and nobody gives a fuck which species you personally prefer. “I love CATS, fuck dogs’ rights”. Ok… Nice.

    In other words (AGAIN) YOU WOULD care in my place (or Arab people, non-vegans, other pacific vegans…). Exactly like the rest of his (not very smart) fans who posted here to defend him. All of you WOULD care. But he was not violent towards all of you. And that is THE ONLY FUCKING REASON you still defend him. Because ALL OF YOU would be crying otherwise, especially considering you think JV is aggressive and angry (I facepalm at such hypocrisy). “The JV is attacking another vegan, that is wroooong, only animals matter”… If it wrong, why the fuck do you defend somebody who attacks other vegans like me and many other people who posted here?

    Next time you should bother reading some comments before posting. This guy has attacked many other vegans and you had many examples. By this way you would avoid saying silly things like:

    …”YOU are here spending hours of your time presenting an unconvincing and antagonistic attack on one person. Perhaps it is a simple case of envy on your part that Yourofsky has a large following”… Unconvincing? Really…?

    You DEFINITELY need to read other comments before posting. ENVY? That is the very first word any fan uses when someone says anything against his idol. I thought you were no “fan”.

    But…, well, for now ONLY the other animals matter anyway, because YOU have not been attacked (yet)… Right?…

    THE ONLY REASON why he “converts” SOME people is because they DON’T/DIDN’T see the whole picture of this hypocrite. They DON’T know about my examples of his violence when watching a speech or reading anything on his website.

    This means even HE has success only with a NON-violent approach (regarding to FIRST CONTACT and people who don’t “know” him; after that, any “devoted fan” is obviously manipulable and many of them become bigots playing the role “I am a cool misanthrope too, like Gary”).

    Secondly, “HE” is not converting people every day (and it DOES matter HOW you convince people, because they will spread the message trying to “convert” more people).

    It is every vegan/vegetarian or anybody who uses Youtube, Facebook, Twitter or whatever and shares HIS videos. It is mainly internet: PEOPLE made him famous sharing his speech (the one with the modest title “best speech…blabla”). He is FAR from being a “genius” who made all the studies in anthropology, medicine, biology, etc. (there is not such a genius in so many disciplines anyway) that support Veganism.

    He is just a non-complete idiot who had good intentions and did a good research about veganism and what it involves for our health, environment blablabla. Like MANY others. What he did was a summary of knowledge and thoughts from OTHER vegans and non-vegans. There is nothing extraordinary about him (besides his hypocrisy and narcissism after several years getting more famous), it is YOU and other people who made him look like the “Vegan God”. ANY vegan psychologist, biologist, sociologist, doctor with half a brain could have improved A LOT his website, his speeches and all his info.

    Many people don’t know other “orators”, they ONLY know “the great hero” Gary Yourofsky and automatically think he “invented” the Veganism. No, he didn’t, and there are other better options. Even some young, eloquent and pacific youtubers like Mic. the Vegan.

    In my case I do prefer to use MY own knowledge and reasoning (this is my “Direct Action”):

    I explain my friends, family and other people (in Spanish, German, English or Bulgarian) which parts of our brain are similar or nearly identical compared to other animals’ brains (like the Limbic System)…, WHY, what does it involve, which is the difference between emotion and feeling and why other animals DO have emotions as well, why we commit one of the biggest ethical contradiction of our society when we use other animals for experiments in Neurology and Psychology (science admits already we are significantly similar in many aspects), why they perceive them as inferior beings (even as things/tools sometimes) and which ethical contradictions it involves (clarifying exactly why it has nothing to do with cognitive capacity/”intelligence”), why we do not need to eat them (medically) and many other things… Why ETH theories regarding to meat and the evolution of our brain don’t make sense… Why it is so hard to change the perception about some animals (social norms and interaction)… Why Veganism is a more ecological perspective as well (sharing UN reports or any reference about studies, articles)… And MANY other things.

    So tell me, please, how THE FUCK pacifism = inactivism. You should more likely say “not being famous because of a viral video and not getting money from Israel and PETA” = INACTIVISM. Hopefully you will get the sarcasm. NO, I don’t just share a link to a speech with my friends or something like that like his fans (I can provide much more info, in a more logical and personal way myself). I explain/write personally all the arguments again and again till they understand everything, and I don’t give up when somebody is resistant, ONLY when somebody clearly is not even listening.

    And no, I don’t talk to them like their sweet grandmother because I am pacific/a pacifist. I am pacific, but persuasive at the same time.

    What I want to conclude here is: we DON’T NEED a concrete “Vegan Hero”, because every single vegan can be his own “Vegan Hero” and spread info, thoughts, reasoning and all the logic behind the (ethical) Veganism.

    We only need to use references (studies), science, social skills, eloquence and some “channel” to communicate. That’s it. We don’t need a “star”, guru or leader; especially a violent one. Everybody has access to Google and many sources. More or less, but everybody can do something. And everything “counts” (if it is not violent/hypocrite).

    2) If you want to start a Revolution, you should make sure first you will have in short term a great % of people supporting your cause. Just with your “anger” and “motivation” it WON’T work.

    Women, Afro-American people, Indian… Take any example. Maybe only a few people start the revolution itself, sometimes with a “concrete hero”/leader like MLK or Gandhi…; BUT, adding more and more victims -who become members of that revolution-, they get automatically a lot of support. This is why they succeeded.

    However, our victims, sadly, could not support us. Even being billions.

    This is why it makes no sense to start a “violent” or “aggressive” revolution if we are not even the 3 % of the world population. Even with the most pragmatic (not truly ethic) perspective/strategy.

    That revolution would “push away” many people who could change/have changed.

    Even if you say it would “only” be to catch the attention of more people through “disturbances”: the most of them would call us “freaks”, crazy bigots, dumb hippies who care more about animals than children dying because of wars or hunger and so on… You know what I mean.

    “Bad publicity is better than no publicity” is a false statement, especially for Veganism.

    3) Besides his violence and hypocrisy, one of his usual mistakes is his Manichaeism. This is definitely NOT about “Good” and “Evil”.

    This dichotomy (Good/Evil) is a psychological “shortcut” that people make when they cannot immediately explain the reason why some people do what they do, or don’t do what we expect.

    It is easier to say “Hitler was evil/a bad person” than trying to explain with science (Psychology, Social Psychology…) and logic how and why a person can do what he did (for him it was the right thing, there was no “Demon” inside him taking control of his body…). One can apply exactly the same for any human being perceived as a “bad person”.

    The reality is much more complex than this simplistic and false “shortcut”. Many or some of us could have been Nazis if we would have been born in Germany THOSE years, or racists in other place and time… Actually the most of us were meat-eaters, including GY (but he loves to use the word “Evil” to justify his own violence).

    If Gary would have read a bit about how Social Norms work, Symbolic Interactionism, Social Transformations and Social Psychology in general…, maybe he would have realized Social Norms are CONSTRUCTIVE rather than restrictive, which explains WHY it’s so hard to change a society, WHY it takes “ages” for concrete persons to change his own cognitive structures, etc. Then he would not be so frustrated when seeing people who don’t change so fast, and he would not transform this frustration into violence.

    The fact is: societies change for good, but it is SLOW and complex (as tendency). If you think this is not true, because our society is s***, then please compare our situation with the situation of hundredths of years ago (ignore technology and comfort). We have been EATING MEAT FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, and you want everybody to go vegan in 50?…

    MLK and other leaders, many times, didn’t start from 0. If you want to tell me some leaders provoked big social changes in a few years only by their own with “disturbances”, you should really try to look at the bigger picture (history) and read about how the ENTIRE change took place over many years, and how there were already other movements BEFORE and AFTER them. Hell, we are not even done with these issues/social changes today. There are “some” (…) nazis, sexists and racists nowadays; as I said, but less and less.

    Sentient beings are being enslaved and killed meanwhile… I know, and you are right: I would not be saying all this if I were in their place (I would be desperate). However, the “fastest” way is not with violence.

    We don’t need weapons like “Violence”. We have much better weapons like Science, Logic and Education; with all of them we can create cognitive dissonances in many people, who will sooner or later change or at least spread their own dissonance. When people cannot clearly solve a cognitive dissonance, they feel anxiety from time to time about it and share it to get help or use others to convince them/themselves. One example would be the guy who came here to ask about eggs.

    Those who eat slowly less and less meat are a part of the social transformation too, even though they are still FAR away from the ideal moral alimentary behavior (I know JV and many other vegans disagree on this, but I am talking in terms of psycho-sociological changes/social transformation, not our ethical goal).

    People don’t change usually “instantly”, because our brain tries to re-confirm its own cognitive structures when interacting with a person who is not perceived as a “teacher”, “mentor”, “parents” (non-pedagogic context). If you did not realize this, just think about how many discussions take place usually between people, and ask yourself: how many times ANY of them change his/her mind? BUT we are at the same time actually a combination of the “negotiated” and interiorized particular social norms of our social groups (veganism involves its own “normality” and new norms); therefore, we are the RESULT of ALL the interactions (combined with a concrete genome) anyway, despite -as mentioned- no BIG observable changes after every single interaction.

    In terms of egos, we usually defend our own “structures” and only a very “powerful” logic can provoke sometimes a significative cognitive dissonance and change the receptor “immediately” in such situations (discussion/debate). This is why women in general are a bit “easier” to “convert”: their ego is usually not so inflated and defensive; testosterone makes it harder to “listen” (and men are usually more afraid of looking “weak” if they get convinced).

    You have many examples here: probably you won’t change deeply your mind, and anybody of all the people who commented. But it is not possible that everybody is right, and it would be stupid to say NOBODY of us changed even a bit as well. THIS is how social interaction works: it is slow, complex, progressive and subtle in the MOST of the cases.

    DON’T expect the most of the people changing immediately, and you won’t be so frustrated and desperate (pro-violence).

    People are not “evil”… The problem is not the pacifism either. We are just designed that way (it is how our brain works when processing info with powerful filters like Social Norms, our ego’s defense and prejudices). Still frustrating, I know. But trying to force them is even worse.

    Education is the answer and most powerful weapon in any society. Not violence.

    Finally: the Joyless Vegan is NOT trying to “ruin” the image of GY. He did it already himself. She is just warning people who don’t “know” him (but think they do) and take him blindly as the perfect vegan. She is not the first and won’t be the last vegan who does so.

    http://www.toprntobsn.com/veganism/

    • A) I love you 🙂
      B) Your English is just fine 🙂
      C) Thanks for being a voice of reason–I truly appreciate the time you took to create such a thoughtful post

      • You deserved it for your patience (I don’t mean you needed it; you can clearly defend yourself).

        It was irritating… Because she was applying some kind of… “harassment” (“Direct Action”, you know :D) coming back again and again without additional arguments/counterarguments, but at the same time telling you how you should invest your own time-like… trying to make you feel “guilty” (?) while wasting HER time with that mediocre “pressure”… At some point I was wondering if she expected you to delete the article and comments. (?)

        I had responded to the concept “Direct Action”, and she keeps repeating the same… Jeez. “Direct Action” is a vague “popular term”, not a scientific one (there is no accurate definition). The term comes from Journalists, Politicians, Social Leaders, Activists… Not social-psychology itself.

        No social-psychologist would use it in an accurate scientific context (should not), only if she/he would like to mention it as an usual term of a concrete social group (like activists). Any action is “direct”, and any interaction implies action (and influence for the change: actually a Society is a “living” heterogeneous complex mass constantly and slowly changing/shifting, as you said). Just to be vegan would be already “direct” in our capitalistic context with such a vague definition, and letting people know it.

        http://directactioneverywhere.com/faq/

        Extract:

        “…Remember (…) direct action can take many different forms. Even a PERSONAL CONVERSATION is a form of direct action…”.

        So… Direct Action even for some activists is doing pretty much anything that involves interaction… But in terms of quality (and not quantity), I don’t recommend disruptions and disturbances (I explained why in my “lengthy rant”…).

        Science and education are our best tools to change social norms (and therefore a society), in any pacific context: organized speeches, youtube channels, sharing info (articles, studies, reports…), any conversation, debate or discussion anywhere… We definitely DON’T want to be “categorized”/socially “classified” as naive and ignorant “hippies” with a guitar or violent extremists.

        Science must always be combined with epistemology and Ethics (Philosophy) though, because every scientist is a human, and any human can (intentionally or not) “skew” his/her study/studies (data and/or analyse/conclusion).

        Such is the power of education, that nobody (I mean no concrete person, and no vegans) actually “converted” me. After finishing psychology in Barcelona I just realized our brains are extremely similar (excepting our neocortex) and it makes no sense to keep enslaving and eating other animals if we don’t need them to survive-for this part I did my research, since I was no expert in nutrition (and I must admit I was one more young idiot/ignorant who used to think we can get protein only from meat and eggs).

        Sorry for disabling the notifications (I got this one because it was a response to my own post) and my last “lengthy rant” XD (I guess only Laura and you have read them), but I don’t have your patience with such people. I will visit your blog from time to time though (will add it to favorites). Keep up the good work. 🙂

      • “Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored.[4]..” .Wikipedia- direct action. …As used by Martin Luther King.

      • Thanks for cutting and pasting a definition from Wikipedia. Not sure what you are trying to prove. Veganism is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FORM OF DIRECT ACTION ONE CAN DO FOR ANIMAL RIGHTS. Veganism does exactly what that definition says. Why are you still here arguing with me?

      • Denis, thanks for quoting MLK supporting what I said:

        “The term comes from Journalists, Politicians, Social Leaders, Activists… Not social-psychology itself”. This is why it’s no accurate and contradictory/different between different leaders and activists.

        What is… TENSION?… In psychology we use “Cognitive Dissonance” (unequivocal and accurate), and you can cause it in any interaction if the “recipient” realizes her/his own Cognitive Structures are not as logic as the info that the “speaker” expounds. After that the recipient will try to solve it negating the info (or some other defensive reaction) or “reconstructing” his own cognitive structures (for the better) and changing.

        However, let’s use the word TENSION if you want. I see TENSION every day between vegans and meat-eaters on youtube channels about veganism, blogs, FB sites, personal conversations… And a significative % of the meat-eaters change (many not, obviously) or will do it slowly.

        The context of MLK has nothing to do with ours. We have more “channels” to communicate our arguments and less restrictions to persuade. Streets are not the only way to communicate.

        Actually just a youtube channel has more impact than 10 vegans yelling or singing.

        With disturbances and disruptions I can not explain eloquently about: Casomorphins in Cheese (including what is an addiction and what does it involve), the Limbic System as responsible in regard to emotions, the difference between feeling and emotion (some feelings are exclusively human, but no emotion is), about B12, glucose from Carbs and NOT lipids and protein (despite the gluconeogenesis) as main “fuel” source for our brain regarding to the excuse “meat made us smart”…, and many other things.

        I am not going to buy a guitar to sing in Edeka (a supermarket here in Germany): “Open your Heart… Save the Animals!”… Because I think it is not productive for Veganism/Anti-Speciesism.

        That was about the “quality” of the message and strategy.

        In terms of “quantity”, ok… If it makes you happy, I will say it openly and honestly (no sarcasm):

        I am a lazy and egoistic human being, despite being vegan. Because clearly I could do more (quantity). I could do speeches, youtube channels, blogs… and spread info on them, not just FB, comments on other sites and personal conversations.

        I could spend each minute of my “free-time” for the victims. And I don’t. I admit it. But in terms of quality: disturbances and disruptions are NOT productive. Sorry. We fight against “ignorance” (people think they need other animals to survive/their health). Not “evil” to sing “goofy” things or yell at people buying/eating meat anywhere.

  50. I havent had time to read this lenghy rant but it seems you have not either read mine. i am not advocating violence …ever. please read what direct action entails on other sites. Martin Luther and Ghandi never used violence . But they did cause civil disturbance and stretched the limits of a legal structure which was and still is designed to preserve a conservative mainstream staus quo. Please consider a point that I make. Veganism remains at 1 % after over 70 years of passive advocacy.

  51. Every minute without change of attitude results in the torture and premature slaughter of 10 000 poor miserable suffering terrified sentient beings. History of social change shows us that 20% of the population is all that is required to achieve a “tipping point ” that will achieve social change. Can you sitback and relax while nearly 70 BILLION ANanimals are tortured and slaughtered every SINGLE year? ( i have read it takes 32 years for a human tocount to onebillion alone !!) This is the most immoral, cruel and stupendous mindboggling atrocity that has ever occurred in the history of planet earth.

  52. ….and all that Joyless vegan can preoccupy herself with is the anger of one angry but compassionate man. !!!!

    • No, that is not “all” I preoccupy myself with. What a stupid thing to say. But we NEED to be critical of the message that “animal rights” people like Gary Y, or like Freelee the fucked up “Banana Girl”, are putting out there. If you don’t agree, then don’t. I really, truly do not give a single fuck about what you think of Gary Y. You are just one of many adorers. So go adore, and get off my blog.

    • ……and all YOU can preoccupy yourself with is defending a violent man. He is not merely “angry”–that would be understandable. I get angered by injustice too, but I don’t advocate rape or cheer when hunters die.

  53. I bet my last buck you would have had time to read if he would be supporting you. I have read both. His evidence and logic smashes yours. You can not call somebody “compassionate” after reading all his examples and arguments. Compassionate people don’t have preference for some animals.

    Did you read the comments of Gary when those hunters died?… Fantasising how they would become shit from some bear. Oh, so much compassion from somebody who has eaten meat many years too.

    I am not vegan yet (I am considering it thanks to Martin Petrov), but I can tell you for sure I would never become vegan because of people like GY.

    Have a nice day.

  54. 170 Comments… I have read all of them (sadly this includes all your hypocrite messages). It’s you who don’t read/process/assimilate what others, including me (I had posted as Martin Petrov Gueorguiev above), have said about the evidence that GY is truly and irrefutably VIOLENT towards other vegans, not just non-vegans.

    Gary Gangsterousky and other violent vegans have NOTHING to do with Gandhi and Martin Luther King. The fact that he was clearly not violent towards YOU, doesn’t change all this. The fact that you don’t use the word “Violence” doesn’t mean you are not advocating/defending Violence.

    I have clearly explained all your contradictions in my last post, obviously I am not going to do it again, since YOU ARE clearly a fan (don’t lie again trying to look more “objective” making people waste their time responding to you).

    You have no clue about Social Psychology/Sociology and I would even say History, as I pointed out in my “lengthy rant” (I use caps and some words to accentuate, not to rant; nice try though… “!!!!”…).

    But you clearly have “no time” to stop being an ignorant fan. So read and learn to “process” more objectively info that clearly refutates your dogma, or be ignored. (The number of vegans has grown, but keep repeating you BS as long as you want to sleep well thinking violence is the solution for all those sentient beings).

  55. are you addressing me? nowhere here have i advocated violence. quite the contrary. nowhere here have i said i am a fan of Yourofsky. I am full of praise and admiration for Ghandi and MLk.i think this demonstrates that you in fact have not read the comments here. but Yourofsky nevertheless has stirred up awareness by being contoversial, he has also been responsible for changing the attitudes of many. Why attack those who have become Animal Rights advocates because of him? i cant believe Joyless vegan can justify so much of her time to this preoccupation . perhaps if your comments were shorter they would be more inviting and time appropriate to read.

  56. My long comment has more logic and evidence than all your bunch of stupid and repetitive comments all together (in your entire life, not just here). Even some free education (introduction in Social Psychology, since you definitely don’t have a clue about how Societies change, Social Norms and Symbolic Interactionism).

    Actually, at this point, I am not even sure if you are just stupid as fuck, a fan or a troll.

    Defending someone who is violent (Gary Yourofsky and ALF tactics), implies advocating violence.

    I am not following the comments-section here anymore, because I definitely don’t have the patience of the Joyless Vegan.

    But it is stupid to keep a conversation with someone who is too lazy to read, open his stupid mind and learn something new, but not to repeat the same idiotic and contradictory BS.

  57. in regard to the link to Roland Vincents Armory of the Revolution. i would have thought it was obvious that it was posted here for discussion. I do not follow his ideology although agree with many of his observations. You have made gross assumptions about my views and your lack of perception, understanding, your aggressive, and exceedingly arrogant derogatory manner demonstrates your own hypocracy at reading and taking in what has been said. it is laughable that you should accuse others of doing so. You obviously do not understand the principle of direct action in spite of my explanation above. i do not understand why you are so obsessed with attacking one man when the USA government spends 35 billion dollars propping up the animal exploitation industries while the corporate food industries continue to cover up their disgusting trade with lies and deception. it is sad that you are determined to stir up divisiveness amongst the tiny 1% of the population who care. your ” rant” above is nothing more than defensive dribble to justify your inocuous attempts at creating change amongst a few family members. why dont you get out and do something constructive.

  58. you have called me a fuckwit, stpid, lazy, ignorant, hypocrital to name just a few. For a pacifist you sure are aggressive. i will not be visiting this page again to be judged and attacked by such as you .

  59. What???? You got OFFENDED? Really???? Really???? I laugh really hard.

    Now imagine if you would have received this kind of violence:

    “If I ever run into you, I am gonna pummel you until your face is completely broken”. Out of nowhere.

    But you call this person COMPASSIONATE and defend him. Your argument about the “division” is a JOKE. If a vegan could be… an assassin, rapist or whatever…, am I not “allowed” to criticize his acts just because he would be a VEGAN? LOL Nice logic.

    I had A LOT of patience with you, keeping in mind how much time I wasted reading all your comments and responding to you. Then you say you are not even going to read mine… This is worse than anything I could call you (which is an opinion that I am free to post, exactly like you calling me illogically hypocrite). Pacifism is not about smiling and being super nice all the time.

    You are the hypocrite, and you should definitely read my whole long post above to understand why. With an open mind, not prejudging stupidly. I am not focused only on family members, wtf are you even talking about?

    I hope I don’t get more notifications here, I had disabled them. (?)

  60. This page needs to be removed from the internet. All you need to do to see you’re full of as much hate as Gary, is to read these comment responses. Jesus, have some class.

    • No, this page does NOT need to be removed from the Internet. Criticizing Gary Y does not equate to “hate”, so no.
      “Jesus, have some class”….says the guy who comes to an Internet page to leave a dazzling comment like this. Fuck off bro.

      • I think this is his point…. Every time someone disagrees with you, you get defensive and drop the ‘F’ bomb. Very classy. This is pure unprofessional biased journalism at its best. You do not really want a good intellectual debate do you? You just want a platform to spout your egotistical one-sided personal opinionated nonsense. Why don’t you do everyone a favor and ‘Go Away’!

      • Well good fucking thing I’m not claiming to be a journalist, you dumb shit. I have a blog. If you don’t like what I say, feel free to not fucking read it. Why don’t YOU do everyone a favour and go fuck yourself.

        Classy enough for you?

      • You know the Second Edition of the 20-volume Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171,476 words in current use, and 47,156 obsolete words, and you choose to consistently use the same obscene ‘F” word. Blog or no blog my dear. I would encourage you to go out of your comfort zone and really reach for a higher standard of vocabulary. Bless you.

      • Tara, I love intellectual debate. So far, I’ve not seen any. I’ve seen people defending a misogynist loudmouth and insulting me. If you say something intelligent, I will respond in kind. So feel free to say something intelligent–you haven’t yet.
        Also, the point of this blog is that it’s my space to talk about whatever the hell I want. I don’t require your approval.

      • awww, Tara, what a clever reply, but you should have recommended a thesaurus, not a dictionary. It would have been more appropriate. Bye now.

  61. Mr Gary Yourofsky is not a hero, he is a GOD, I agree totally with him, people who slaughter animals should be tortured in the same way. You should not kill an animal to eat them, if you see someone killing an animal the in return you should do the same to them, Gary is right in everyway and I hope he becomes a god in everyone’s eyes. Punish the ones who kill and embrace the ones who don’t, what you say about Gary is wrong and he is the one doing his part, but you just wite rubbish about him and do nothing about the causes??????? You should just talk to yourself in an empty room and keep it locked up for the rest of your life!!!!!

    • …….so, you were born a vegan, then? No? I thought not. Neither was I. And when you and I were both non-vegans, would you have wanted to be tortured? Or would you have preferred that someone talk to you about animals and what humans do to them, explain that it’s wrong and encourage you to go vegan without threatening you?

      I know which I’d prefer.

      How do you figure I am “doing nothing”? Buddy, you don’t know me. I don’t make violent posts, videos or speeches about how I want to kill anyone who isn’t vegan, but that doesn’t mean I am “doing nothing”.

      Maybe instead of worshipping Gary Y, you should very carefully consider what it is he is actually advocating and see if that really fits into a world view that is predicated on peace (veganism). I’ll give you a little hint: it doesn’t.

      Run along now.

    • ” if you see someone killing an animal the in return you should do the same to them”

      ………..

      Wow. This is what Gary Y’s followers are like. That is just scary. Wow. Just………wow.

    • I totally agree with you and Gary 👍🏼👍🏼

  62. Gary Yourofsky changed the way I think and eat. He has transformed many people into thinking that vegan im is the only way forward to prevent the slaughter, torture and murder of innocent animals. HOW CAN THAT BE WRONG???? Go Gary!

    • Obviously you haven’t read a word I have said about it. I am glad Gary helped you, but that isn’t really the point. As I have already said here, much of what he says has merit. But his saying that women who wear fur deserve to be brutally raped, and men who wear fur also deserve to be savagely raped, is not acceptable. Gary Y has proven repeatedly that he has severe anger issues. We all have a right to be angry about how non-vegans treat animals, but we can’t treat others with violence or advocate violence. You and I and Gary were not born vegan. No one threatened ME with violence and I still went vegan. And I don’t want Gary Y threatening my family and friends. My whole point, which you seem to have missed entirely, is that violence has no place in the animal rights movement, which is about peace.

      • I don’t think he means this literally, he is merely making a comparison. I think the focus should be on people who are making a difference. Gary’s thousands of followers alone prove this. He certainly didn’t scare me. His anger is totally directed at the horrible people who treat animals so violently. I get what your saying but I think you are taking it too literally. Anyone who can challenge the mindset of someone to enable them to choose a vegan lifestyle can only be good for society. I support Gary 100 percent and any other animal activist as it happens. Very brave individuals. And for the record, Gary Y is also an extremely intelligent man.

  63. You can excuse what he says if that makes you feel better, but you are still missing the point. “Horrible people who treat animals so violently” are your friends and family, and mine. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want my friends and family to be violently raped because they are not vegan. If you think I am taking words Gary Y says “literally” and he just doesn’t mean it that way, I disagree very strongly. I think he means every single word of it. I never slighted his intelligence; in fact, I never slighted him at all. All I said was, a person who promotes violence as Gary Y does should not be the face of a movement that is, or should be, based on peace.

  64. It seems that u r getting paid by the government to write that so there would be more people to hate him and veganism. He tells the truth and he doesnt want to harm to non vegans. And he does promote it very successfully and everyone is afraid that a wave of veganism is coming. Haha. Good for everybody that is. Peace.

    • I am not getting paid by “the government” (which one?) to write anything. I am just concerned about a man who spouts violent rhetoric in what should be a peaceful movement. You don’t like what I say? Then don’t. I honestly do not have a fuck to give.

  65. You total fucking noob, francione has done fuck all, he’s just got a good pr team.

  66. Gary rulez and you suck.

  67. Hi Joyless Vegan
    I’m a new vegan and watched Gary’s best speech ever. I’m sad to hear about the violent stuff he’s said. That’s it for me, I don’t want to read or watch him anymore as I am afraid of people who are able to speak violently without remorse. Of course we’re all capable of speaking violently and being violent…me too…but I feel much remorse once my eyes have been opened to my violence…that’s why I’m now vegan. So I’m afraid to watch/read his work. I used to hero worship charismatic men who were able to say violent things but I snapped out of it after lots of therapy.
    Being a newish parent with two little kids is like having a mirror in front of you all day and all night. I love them enormously, and I can still be controlling, condescending or full of uninvited anger sometimes…and it’s my job to sort that out so that they are treated with the kindness and respect all beings deserve, especially from those stronger and more powerful within the power structures we are living in (ie I am their parent and have privilege as such.)
    The truths that I learned from Gary were another push to learn more, and for that I thank him.

    • Gary has many good things to say. Unfortunately, he’s prone to violent actions and rhetoric. It’s too bad, but violence has no place in a peaceful movement. Thanks for stopping by to comment–much appreciated 🙂

      • If you don’t like Gary’s delivery of the vegan message, don’t watch him. There are plenty of other peaceful vegans to watch. But PLEASE STOP BAD-MOUTHING A PERSON WHO HAS INFLUENCED THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE TO GO VEGAN !!!! What is wrong with you ? Do you really love animals or not ? There are many types of people in the world and we are all influenced differently. Please leave Gary alone for those of us who love him. Anger has its place in the fight against cruelty. Sometimes we need to get fired up about torture and abuse of innocent, helpless victims. It clears the fog away and helps us see the issues clearly. I was vegan long before watching Gary, but I resonate with his approach. Leave him be.

      • For the hundredth time, I don’t give a single shit how many people this man has supposedly “inspired” to go vegan! You know what else he “inspires”? VIOLENCE. You can always tell the “vegans” who adore Gary Y–they say things like “yay!” when hunters die, or they say “well, that’s 49 fewer non-vegans in the world” after the recent Orlando shooting. So you know what? Fuck Gary Y and all those who adore him. He preaches violence, and I will not “leave him be”.
        HE WAS NOT BORN VEGAN. Do you understand that?! At one point in his life, HE WAS NOT VEGAN. So what the ever loving fuck gives that man the right to preach violence and hate against non-vegans WHEN HE WAS ONE HIMSELF?! Answer me that. Really–I’d love to hear an answer that actually justifies the shit he says, something besides “well he’s angry so it’s okay”. No, it fucking isn’t.

      • I have been reading these comments and your ‘reactive’ replies as they litter my e-mails. I have been reading and waiting for a ‘somewhat’ intelligent and articulate reply that justify’s this thread of GY ‘spouting violence’etc. Yes. I have been reading and waiting for a reply that reveals you to be the violent provocating and insensitive individual that you are. There have been many nonsensical replies that have come close but this one! For you to comment about those poor individuals who lost their lives in the terrible mass shooting in Orlando. How dare you. To mention that tradegy in the same sentence to ‘try’ and convey what Vegans that support Gary Y would allegedly say is, well…. Let’s just say, you have actually surpassed yourself this time. its beyond tasteless. It’s vile.

      • Know what else is vile? Gary Y. Here you go, since you asked so nicely.
        http://www.energygrid.com/animals/2015/05ap-yourofskyrape.html
        http://veganfeministnetwork.com/yourofsky_rape/
        http://bitesizevegan.com/ethics-and-morality/does-violence-have-a-place-in-animal-liberation-gary-yourofsky/
        Here is some lovely violent rhetoric from your hero himself; scary stuff:
        https://www.facebook.com/notes/%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%9F-%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A1/empathy-education-and-violence-a-time-for-everything-by-gary-yourofsky/556125857762554/

        I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO THINKS THIS MAN IS VIOLENT AND A MENACE TO VEGANISM. Okay? Got that? Good. Lots of us think this guy is garbage.
        You don’t like it? You think I am insensitive? Good for you. I don’t give a single damn what you think if you support someone like Gary Y. You are not worth my time.
        Gary Y celebrates when hunters are killed in hunting accidents. It was a vegan online who made the Orlando comment–all I said was he is likely a Gary Y fan, because Gary Y and fans of his SAY SHIT LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME. If you cannot see that, too bad for you. You have my pity. Now get the hell off my blog!!

      • Here is a stunning quote from your hero, taken right off his Facebook page:

        Deep down, I truly hope that oppression, torture and murder return to each uncaring human tenfold! I hope that fathers accidentally shoot their sons on hunting excursions, while carnivores suffer heart attacks that kill them slowly. Every woman ensconced in fur should endure a rape so vicious that it scars them forever. While every man entrenched in fur should suffer an anal raping so horrific that they become disemboweled. Every rodeo cowboy and matador should be gored to death, while circus abusers are trampled by elephants and mauled by tigers. And, lastly, may irony shine its esoteric head in the form of animal researchers catching debilitating diseases and painfully withering away because research dollars that could have been used to treat them was wasted on the barbaric, unscientific practice of vivisection.”

        If you don’t think that is violent, I don’t know what to say to you.

      • And who could forget his anti-Palestine rant? You can see it here: http://veganfeministnetwork.com/hero_worship/

        because he deleted it from his own page.

        Your hero is a real peach of a guy. Words fail me.

      • Yawn…

        Oh wait. One second. Wasn’t it you who actually wrote on your blog back in June last year that, and I quote:

        “Mr Yourofsky actually says many worthwhile things”
        I do believe it was.

        “Get the hell off my blog”. Okay darling. I would like to say it’s been a blast but….

      • and by the way, asshole, yeah, I love animals. My not loving Gary Y has fuck all to do with what I feel about animals. What a stupid comment.

  68. Joyless vegan indeed !!!! In my opinion, Gary is fantastic spokesperson for the animals. He has influenced thousands to go vegan. For god’s sake, stop criticizing people that are doing good. If you don’t like his delivery, don’t listen to him. Jeez !!!

    • Wow, do you ever get defensive over a very fair criticism of Gary Y’s violent rhetoric! Criticism is a vital part of any social justice movement, so why are you getting so bent out of shape over my comments on Gary Y? If YOU don’t like what I’m saying, take your own damn advice and don’t listen. Not sure why you felt the need to come onto my blog and share your little pearl of non-wisdom with me, but unless you have something more intelligent to say than “I like Gary Y”, please don’t come back.

  69. Isn’t it funny that whilst branding Gary aggressive and violent you come across the very same in your post and comments to people sharing their own opinion. Especially when they say the like Gary.

    I personally think you have totally taken what Gary says in the wrong context. I think Gary very cleverly compares the abuse animals suffer to that which has happened to humans throughout history which only after the events are condemned so much. He asks people the genuine question of whether they would accept the things to happen to them that happen to animals… That is a very disturbing image but a very relevant comparison as we are not superior beings and our relevance is certainly not superior to this planet.

    I understand you discomfort at the way he tells his message however he does it no differently to other historical figures that were once ridiculed or criticised for telling the relevant message they did.

    I think it is faie to say you perhaps wouldn’t like Gary to talk to you in the way he does but he is certainly honest and straight to the point, even if that is condemning. Gary himself haa friends that are not vegan, he doesn’t tarnish non-vegans as people is a horrible light, he knows the acts they are doing are often times down to complete discorde and unawareness and when necesaary he says the things that are true, hurtfull but entirely necessary.

  70. Interesting read…especially the comments. I love animals but it took me almost 42 years to finally decide that eating them made me hypocritical and I needed to change that. However, some of the reasons of my slow-transition are what the “angry white man” has mentioned on his speeches (and not so angrily did he state them). Eating meat is an easy lifestyle, available everywhere, more popular than non-meat items, etc.

    I needed to see his proclaimed “The Best Speech You Will Ever Hear” to convince me to go vegan. At the time I was vegetarian with no interest to go hardcore vegan ‘cos I decided on myself it was impossible. His video showed it wasn’t impossible, plus the insight he briefed on herbivores/omnivores/carnivores opened my mind more. In the end of the video he expressed many products we can consume (which according to him they don’t endorse him, so I will believe that until I hear otherwise) and I’ve shopped for these imitation dairy products and am very impressed. Without the “angry white man’s” help, I would have been lost.

    Another thing, the person who told me about Gary Yourofsky (please get his name right…isn’t so hard if you try…I myself have a “crazy” last name) is a white female yogi. She implored me to watch his “Best” video. She loves life and loves peace, but she never told me that Gary’s anger is something she could do without.

    Anyways, the reason I am here is because I’m doing my own research on Gary and want to see all sides of the story instead of just his on his website (which I think is still very impressive).

    I don’t know what type of person you are, Joyless Vegan, but I appreciate you being a vegan and helping the cause that way. Maybe Gary’s style of delivery is wrong to you (and others), but his style has the motivation to work for many others. I being one example.

    • I appreciate your response. Perhaps the white female yogi had never heard Gary Y’s violent comments on how people who wear fur should be raped, etc. or perhaps she shares his convictions. It doesn’t really matter, does it? If you are okay with him making such horrifying comments, then there is nothing I can say to change your mind. If you were simply not aware he has made them, and stood by them and defended them and excused them, but they actually do bother you, it’s up to you what you do with that knowledge. All I have done here is point out what he has said and stated that it is wrong for him to say such things, he should stop saying such things, and if he does not he should be silenced. If you agree, great. If you don’t, whatever. Then don’t. I do appreciate your thoughtful comment, so thank you for stopping by.

      • I respect your approach, but we need to remember that the end-goal is to provide people some awareness of animal torture/murder and options of alternative food consumption that are available, which Gary did in his one video. Yes, he comes off disturbing at times. He is passionate about animals and I know many people who are the same at that. We have to contain our emotions the best that we can if we see that happen. I hate seeing violence towards animals…even fish! If I see fishermen catching a fish then butchering it right in public, I don’t go to them and beat them to a bloody pulp. I contain the emotion to want to do that the best that I can. Gary probably doesn’t contain his emotions well…or else maybe he doesn’t want to filter them so he releases his anger. Whatever it is, it gives him attention. You yourself wrote this article because of his anger and gave him attention. He probably likes being notorious and recognized for his notoriety. Michael Moore did it. So does Trump. That’s the style of some people. Many believe violence is necessary to counter violence. Personally I don’t know what’s best. I think a balanced approach needs to be done. I’m retired military and have deployed overseas to combat terrorism. I know a bit about violence, but I do not like it. I love animals and want slaughterhouses to be put out of business. It’s been going on too long. I don’t know who is doing a better job of informing people…the peaceful way or Gary’s way. Just remember that people have many different personalities. Some won’t listen if you try to be nice but will give you attention if you’re direct and stern with them about the matter. On the other token, yes, some folks may take offense to the directive and stern talk which won’t help them but the nice calm way may work for them. There are lots of variables in reaching people. Gary reaches some and makes enemies with others. I’m sure you reach some but not others. Okay all I have on this unless you have further questions. Thanks for your time!

  71. Thanks for another thoughtful response 🙂 I guess what it all comes down to is this: Gary Y was NOT born a vegan. At one point in his life, he was part of the system that tortures and kills animals. He didn’t come out of his mother’s womb with all the knowledge he now has. But somehow he made his way to veganism, and I really, truly, sincerely doubt that anyone threatened him with rape or torture or death unless he became vegan. I am fairly certain that Gary Y, like other normal people, learned about what humans do to animals, decided it was wrong, and removed themselves from that system. But UNLIKE normal people, Gary Y has now decided that because he’s now vegan, he has the right to speak violently against non-vegans. He has decided that because he now sees the light, because he has now changed his ways, every single other person on the face of this earth better also change their ways now or else they deserve rape, torture and killing.
    That is literally what he is saying. THAT is his stance.
    How can anyone take him seriously?! So now that HE is vegan, everyone else who isn’t should become vegan or die.
    WTF?
    No, as Gary Y’s own change to veganism demonstrates, we can all decide to make the change. While I understand that he’s upset that animals are being killed now, they were being killed when HE was non-vegan and no one threatened him or told him he should just die.
    Non-vegans are our friends and family. They are not even thinking about the harm they are doing, and like typical humans, most need a LOT of convincing that what they are doing is wrong. But like you and I, they CAN be convinced. I don’t waste time on those who can’t be–we need about 10% before an idea becomes mainstream and non-veganism would start to be frowned upon. Unfortunately, social change takes time. Unless you are a violent revolutionary, I guess. And I understand that desire to make it all stop NOW, but I am not willing to hurt or kill my friends and family or yours to do that. It’s not “choosing” them “over animals”. It’s being true to vegan values and principles. But Gary Y is not, and for that I do not support him. Nothing I say here will ever take away from his popularity, but I still had to speak out.

    • “He has decided that because he now sees the light, because he has now changed his ways, every single other person on the face of this earth better also change their ways now or else they deserve rape, torture and killing.”
      You know what? I don’t think anyone could have said that better than you did. Like converting to veganism allegedly made him above all non-vegans so he can have his way with them. In fairness, he’s not the only person born a vegan. In fact, I think being born as a vegan is a very very very low percentage of the population (naturally from vegans only), but that’s just my opinion.
      I’m not saying what he does is right. I’m saying he takes a “fight fire with fire” personality with many others. Some may deserve it, some may not. He’s a very passionate person and some people admire that. Yet some people do find that psychotic.
      I did see a few of his videos, especially the video which he said he’s not racist because he hates EVERYBODY. I admit I chuckled at that. I believe he just doesn’t care and turns off the filter at times and just goes all out. I don’t know how much truth is in that. Kinda reminds me of hardcore religions that say we are all sinful and we are f**ked…that we must pray and pray and pray…and then hope from doing that that God will allow us passage to Heaven.
      I’ll be the judge of how much of Gary I want to accept as truth or take with a grain of salt. He has helped me decide to become vegan so I’m thankful for that. I feel proud that I don’t contribute to animal torture or killing, or at least I do my best in knowing who I do business with. Plus, his website does have some useful areas of study, especially the vegan foods that are available out in the market. Like I said earlier, I would still be a vegetarian or maybe going back to being an omnivore if I didn’t discover Gary.
      I still don’t know what your approach to promoting veganism is, though. I’m assuming it’s not in-your-face and violent (lol)

      • He is racist. Did you ever see his rant against Palestinians? He had it on Facebook but later deleted it. I believe I posted a link in a recent reply to a comment.

        My approach to veganism is this:

        I accept that I was once a non-vegan. I claimed to love animals, and I helped torture and kill them with my selfishness. One day, truth hit, and in that moment, I decided to no longer participate in that. Vegan immediately.

        Because I became vegan and I am not the most intelligent bestest awesomest person evah, I assume that others can be just like me, meaning that once they know what it’s all about, it’ll make sense to them and they’ll do it. I assume others are intelligent enough to get it, as I did, without coercion or threats.

        However Gary Y means the things he says, he is saying them and that means something. I think his words reflect who he is: a violent and angry man. Is he justified in his anger? Yes, and I have never said otherwise. But it’s what he does with that anger that deeply disturbs me.

        Educating others is great. It’s what I do, minus the violence, rape threats and chair throwing temper tantrums. Honestly? I think Gary Y is your typical entitled, narcissistic white man who loves attention. And I don’t like that.

        If he inspired you, yay, I guess. My concern is that his followers often also adopt his anger and shitty attitude. I find someone like Gary Francione or even Colleen Patrick-Goudreau FAR more inspiring than I could ever find Gary Y. He just gives me the creeps.

      • Also, just to clarify, Gary Y was NOT born a vegan. He was NOT. He was once a non-vegan like all the people he now hates and threatens.

      • I…KNOW. I pretty much believe that everyone knows that he wasn’t born a vegan. He even mentions it during his briefs that he was non-vegan the first 25 years of his life until his life-changing experience at the circus.

      • OK, well given that you said this: “In fairness, he’s not the only person born a vegan”

        I did not just assume you “KNOW”.

  72. Gary Yourofsky is the reason my husband and I became vegan.

    We grew up in southern California and have known and encountered numerous vegans and animal rights activists our whole lives. I always dismissed them. I thought they were overthinking it. I was confident that I was living a good ethical life, even though I was consuming animal products.

    Gary was the first person who won me over with knowledge and logic. I’m sure I’ve met many other knowledgeable and logical vegans before, but Gary’s passion and conviction caught my attention and demanded my focus. In his “Best Speech Ever” he said his goal was to awaken something inside of us that has been suppressed, and that’s exactly what he did for me. Listening to him speak, I couldn’t hide behind my false beliefs that I was living an ethical life as a meat eater. I fact checked what he said and learned that being vegan really is the best way to live.

    I acknowledge that Gary has a cult leader kind of appeal to him, but thank God he is using his powers for good and not bad. His comments about doing violence to other humans is off putting, but I think it just shows his passion for his work and his anger and frustration at people who refuse to wake up and make the connection. He has not done any actual violence to any humans. His off putting comments have only remained comments. He’s no saint, but you can’t deny that he is one of the most effective advocates for veganism out there. To make him “go away” would seriously undermine the vegan movement.

    • Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I am glad he inspired you to go vegan, and as I’ve said before, much of what he says has merit. However, if he continues to speak violently, then yes, I think he needs to “go away”. The animal rights movement is one of peace, not threatening rape and other forms of violence. They may be “just comments” right now, but words can have a very harmful impact. Otherwise, why would “hate speech” be such an issue? I mean, they’re just comments, right? Wrong. He could be an excellent advocate if he’d keep the passion and lose the violence.

    • Also, if you want knowledge and logic minus the angry rhetoric, try reading the works of Gary Francione or look up Colleen Patrick-Goudreau. There are others out there who know every bit as much as Gary Y–I’d argue they know more–and they are FAR MORE PLEASANT to listen to, because who needs violence and anger?

  73. It’s very sad to read all the time Vegans bashing other vegans for the reason to be afraid to get compared with some vegan activist that you wouldn’t like to get compared with; many vegans forget why they became VEGANS, I did because animals and improving my health was a bonus. Don’t be afraid of being seen as others as aggressive or mad, yes, you should be mad when the whole world is killing animals for low pleasures and making fun of a vegan’s cause and besides that, who cares the way you approach is as a vegan?, each of us has its own way and it works!, some meat eaters have became vegans with facts, investigating and getting the right information, others started by listening Gary’s lectures, others, their sweet taking girlfriends or boyfriends had a lot of influence on them, some other people, hard headed and brainwashed ones, had to get it the tough way, with the militant and/or aggressive way… so, who cares what you think about Gary Yourofsky???, he did what many wouldn’t dare to do for being ashamed in front of the society , and same way you are thinking ashamed to be compared to an aggressive vegan, because you want to show the world you are a good passive BS sweet talker… again, who cares??????, be KIND, no matter the way, the results are to be vegan to turn more meat eaters in VEGANS and end with this MADNESS for the voiceless… stop thinking about yourselves and start thinking about them, the ANIMALS; stop bashing other VEGANS doing SOMETHING for the animals and concentrate more doing good things and good activism for the ANIMALS and not for yourself, stop the wanna be vegan celebrities and support each others, again, with the only cause: ” helping animals to live and to live a life they deserve” Too much vegan drama, fake vegans caring less for animals but their own importance among vegans”. CARE ABOUT ANIMALS ONLY and be nice to other vegans. Peace!!

    • …then don’t care. Why are you here then? It IS important to call out people like Gary Y, because as I have stated over and over and over on here, he’s spouting violence and that is NOT okay. If you don’t agree, then don’t. Not sure what else to say.

      • Just shshshsh, do good
        And let others do it their own way, stop bashing vegans and specially Gary Y. It looks ugly what you do, you know? Byeeee, the en for me 💚

      • ……..? What? What are you trying to say here? If you are trying to shush me (as “shshshsh” would imply), then you can go jump off a bridge. There is nothing, and I do mean NOTHING, wrong with being critical of someone like Gary Y, who has the potential to do a lot of harm in this movement. You know what looks ugly? Someone like you, condescendingly showing up here and telling me to shush. Get lost.

  74. you’re blog is complete shit

    • Thanks for stopping by to wow us with the sheer awesomeness of that comment. Did you come up with it all by yourself? Cute 🙂

      • No you are complete shit.You stupid radical animal rights dirtbag.Please tell everyone how you hate men, white people,hunters,medical researchers,fishermen,etc.You and Gary are nothing but human scum.

      • ……wow. You are, like, REALLY determined to…do something…here. I am not sure what your point is, but if you are trying to make yourself look like a douche-bag, mission accomplished bro!

  75. Compassion, we all need to practice it-everyone. If we did we would not use harsh speech, not against writers or promotors or anyone. Being condencending (did I spell it correctly) helps no one. When was the last time anger helped you? Please use kind speech always. Thank you for reading.

    • “Please use kind speech always”. Gary Y does NOT use kind speech. Why are you coming onto MY blog and telling me this, when Gary Y is spouting anger and hatred? Go tell Gary Y what you are saying here–you are in the wrong place, admonishing the wrong person.

  76. Unless you’re a vegan, you can’t begin to understand how we feel when seeing people in super markets buying dead animals. Or sitting down to eat with family/friends and having to listen to them talk about how good the animal flesh is that they are consuming. It’s not easy having such compassion and living around people who are blind to it, or just don’t want to admit that what they are doing is wrong. I completely under stand Gary’s methods. Sometimes I wish i was living on an island somewhere with nothing but vegans. The longer I am vegan, the more I see animal flesh eaters as uncaring and immoral. Now in saying this, I am kind to everyone, even my animal eating family/friends. I just keep my thought and feelings to myself for the most part, but it’s not easy to do. 20 minutes into watching Gary’s the best speech ever, my fiancee, who was slowly transitioning to veganism, paused the video and said that eat will never eat meat meat again.. I thank Gary for that..

    • I am a vegan, but thanks for being condescending. I know exactly how it feels. Thanks. I feel rage. Helplessness. Sorrow. Heartbreak. Frustration. Everything you feel, I feel. But I don’t fucking tell people they deserve to be raped because that is a shitty thing to do. Yes, animal eating and otherwise exploiting IS IMMORAL. But you know what? NO ONE GOT IN YOUR FACE AND SCREAMED AT YOU THAT YOU DESERVE TO BE RAPED AND/OR KILLED for doing what your parents, friends, family, everyone else in society was doing. I get that it’s not easy to not say things–in fact, I drive my husband nuts sometimes because I do comment on the dead animal his family eats in front of me at Thanksgiving, etc. But I don’t tell him and my own family that they deserve a thorough fucking raping. Jesus. How anyone can defend that kind of shit is beyond me. Stop making excuses for this guy.

    • Also, I’m not sure if you are a man, a woman, or somewhere else on the gender spectrum, but I can tell you that as a woman, I am deeply disgusted by the way he talks about eggs. He calls them “chicken periods”, which no they are not, and he basically says menstruation is icky. First, chicken eggs are just that–eggs. Ova. Chickens ovulate but don’t menstruate or “have periods”. So Gary Y demonstrates a complete ignorance of that, which is not surprising as he’s a man. Not only is he utterly ignorant about it, he’s disgusted by a completely natural process in human women. As a woman, I am sick to death of men acting like menstruation is disgusting. I mean, I’m not one of those women who smears menstrual blood on my lips in some weird “love your period because feminine” way, but I also don’t like how men make it into some dirty, disgusting thing. Religion has done a fine job of that, as has patriarchy. We don’t need Gary Y adding to it. And it just makes him sound so stupid and uninformed about biology, so……yeah. “Chicken periods”–jesus.

  77. Hi
    Thank you for writing this. As much as I think you’re right about what you said, allow to say that people need someone like Gary who uses a more aggressive way of promoting veganism. He really shows how serious a problem we are facing. He doesn’t have to be kind to people and play politics. I’m sure he doesn’t literally mean the violent things he says. He’s tired and angry of being of being called an international terrorist for defending innocent beings. I definitely didn’t like what I heard when he wished those things to people, but I think that it would be unfair to stop promoting him knowing that he probably reached the biggest number of people out there and helped them return back to their natural conscious mind.

    Much love.

    • Thanks for commenting. As I said, I think much of what he says has merit. However, until he can learn to control his anger (and I understand his anger–as a vegan, I get it, and I share it), he shouldn’t be talking. I think he does mean those things–I think he does wish those things on people. If he doesn’t, then he needs to STOP saying it. I like aspects of his in-your-face approach and agree that different approaches can reach different people. But there is a world of difference between in-your-face, straight-up approach and a violent, angry man wishing horrible things on people. Until he can learn the difference, I actually think he’s dangerous.

    • And again, you are creating a false dichotomy. You are saying that we must either be aggressive and violent like Gary Y, or kind and play politics. WTF. No, actually, there is a whole spectrum of ways to talk to others about veganism. Some use humor and cartoons, some use logic and appeal to people’s sense of justice–there are lots and lots of ways to talk to others, so please stop talking like there is only Gary Y’s way or else the way of the pacifist hippie.

  78. I honestly don’t care what this article says Gary is my idol and inspired me to become vegan and be a better person

  79. Hello, Joyless Vegan. After finally discovering how these industries we have in our world today are run, I recently made the decision to become vegan. Subsequently, I have spent a lot of time reading and watching videos on the subject, where I inevitably came across Gary Yourofsky. I have been reading these comments (including yours) on Mr. Yourofsky’s approach. I can see your point of view, but only to an extent. There is evidence to suggest that he is very articulate and skilfully informs his audience by raising issues and then using examples of how to deal with them by considering points of view. I do disagree with aggressive language aimed at people who support these industries as consumers. Many cannot see the errors in their ways, for them it’s just a normal way of life. Bear in mind though, that this man has seen slaughterhouses and fur farms first hand. (I think that is enough to make any decent person angry). I think that his obvious energy and passion help to break the vegan stereotype of the softly-softly approach in a positive way as he often lectures to teenagers or young adults. Many people who have never experienced a lecture by a vegan probably would not expect his style, but probably appreciate it once heard.

    • As I’ve said a hundred times already here, much of what he says has merit, but that doesn’t justify throwing chairs and screaming and swearing and saying the vile things he does. So agree if you want, or not. I don’t care. I am one person on the internet stating why this guy is a total creep. Who agrees or disagrees is really not of much concern to me. I find that those who support Gary Y tend to be a bit like him, so it’s not like I can actually get through with rationality and logic and intelligent discussion. All I know is, i really doubt anyone treated him the way he treats non-vegans. And I didn’t need to be screamed at and told I deserved to be raped–you know what got me vegan? Intelligent discourse on why one should be vegan. Really. That was all it took. I know it lacks the drama of an angry white man throwing chairs and screaming that I should be raped, but hey–it worked anyway.

  80. I’m vegan because of him. I don’t scream and yell personally, but he got me thinking after a friend recommended I listen to one of his lectures. And, since then, I’ve “converted” five people in one family (completely vegan now in diet and lifestyle) and one other person, just 2 and a half years in. My cholesterol levels were through the roof, and now the bad cholesterol is a thing of the past for me. I get all the nutrients I need (calcium, iron, B12, DHA Omega 3s, protein) without harming others.I admire him. I’ve never heard him ask for violence on humans.

    With regard to the pets, I will continue to rescue pets in need from kill shelters, and I will continue to give them a wonderful life. As for that making them “slaves,” I scoff at that notion. It is literally too late to go back to them not being pets anymore. I think that qualifies as (what some people may refer to as) “extreme,” and frankly, it just sounds silly even to my vegan, animal loving ears.

    • Thanks for misrepresenting every single thing I’ve said. First, just because you personally have not taken the time to look into Gary Y’s violent rhetoric does not mean it doesn’t exist. It does. Look into it. Second, I have said on here a thousand goddamn times that MUCH OF WHAT HE SAYS HAS MERIT. Okay? Can we get that straight? And it’s just lovely that he is the reason you went vegan. Okay? That is just terrific. Lovely. Amazing. Wonderful. However, as I have already said on here a thousand goddamn times, that is not the ONLY way to get people to go vegan. I don’t even mind his more in-your-face approach, but it would be a whole lot better if he’d not say that women who wear fur deserve to be violently raped, okay? Can you understand why saying that might upset lots of people?
      With regard to pets, I never fucking said you shouldn’t rescue from shelters. Reading comprehension, folks. Let’s work on it. What I said was that the institution of domesticating animals is wrong. It is not right that human beings keep other species as “pets”. What should happen is that all breeding of “pets” should be abolished, and humans need to take care of all those animals who exist right now and give them the best life possible, but we need to fucking stop breeding more into existence. I really didn’t think that was all that hard to comprehend. So you completely misunderstood what I said and then had the audacity to call me silly.

      Fuck off.

    • You “scoff” at the notion that humans have made animals slaves, hey? How stupid are you? Of course they are fucking slaves! We dictate every single aspect of their lives! We dictate what they eat, when and how much. We dictate when or where they relieve themselves–some even “train” their “pets” to go on the toilet or in a particular spot on their lawn. They are on leashes or harnesses or halters and lead lines, or saddled, not really allowed to move about on their own terms. They have no autonomy, no say over what happens to them, who buys them, where they live or how they are treated. If you don’t think that is slavery, and you “scoff” at those who tell you it is, you are just….I don’t even know what to say. You are just so very wrong that words fail me right now.

  81. OMG are you really that stupid? NO ONE BUYS IT FUCKFACE.Nothing more then another radical animal rights retard willing to shove her moral supremecy down others throats.Go to hell nutjob.You and Gary are both sick in the head and would do the world a big favor if you would both go off yourself freaks.Please tell us how much you hate hunters,pet owners,meat eaters,medical researchers etc.Just another urban idiot who thinks she knows more andis morally superior to others.FUCK OFF ASSHOLE.

    • LOL. This must be the best response I have ever seen! “Moral supremacy”–well, in the sense that I don’t go around needlessly torturing and killing other sentient beings, I guess I am morally “superior” to someone who does, or who pays others to. Like, all non-vegans.
      You, yourself, would probably say you are morally superior to someone who doesn’t rape kids, so I don’t get why you are so miffed here.. I mean, you say “morally superior” like it’s a bad thing. If you want to be “morally superior”, then go vegan.
      “Go to hell nutjob”. LOL. Well, if it’s any consolation, getting comments from people like you is its own form of hell.
      Me and Gary–LOLOLOL……the whole point of this post, if you’d bothered to read it, is that I don’t advocate Gary’s methods, or his violent approach. He is a bit of a nutjob, so on that, at least, we can agree 🙂
      Oooh, telling me to “off” myself. Classy bro. Keep it classy.
      Do I “hate” hunters? Not necessarily “hate”, but since you asked so nicely, I do think there is an inherent psychological…problem…with a human being who enjoys killing others. So, yeah, I mean they disturb me, so…..
      I don’t hate pet “owners”, half-wit. I live with two rescue dogs and a rescue cat, all foster fails. Again, if you would read before hitting the war-path, what you’d have noticed is that I advocate for the cessation of breeding animals as “companions” or “pets”, and I listed damn good reasons for doing so. Either read, or don’t, I don’t give a shit, but until you DO read what I have actually said, you have ZERO right to come here and verbally assault me like this.
      So why don’t you f*** off, since you are the one being a raging a**hole.

  82. You are an idiot. You’re not vegan…you’re just trying to turn us all against each other. You’re an evil liar. Fellow vegans, please do not listen to this troll!

    • LOL WUT? I am, actually, vegan and have been for over 10 years now. So….yeah, definitely a vegan here. And unlike many vegans, I don’t support violent rhetoric in what should be a peaceful movement. “Evil liar”….how have I lied, exactly? You can find all those things Gary Y says online. I didn’t make them up to make him look bad–he does that all on his own. Please, show me where I’ve “lied”. Also, not a troll. What you call “troll”, I call “critical thinker”. Unless you have something intelligent to contribute, please just go away.

  83. I was inspired by him a lot and I’m nothing like him that’s a pretty general statement to make

    • Okay, and it’s fabuolous you were inspired by him and aren’t anything like him. Yay, you. However, many who are inspired by him are exactly like him–angry and violent. So, not sure what else to say to you. Glad you aren’t like him; doesn’t change the fact he’s a scary, scary man.

  84. So with the like/ dislike button for the comments

  85. i don’t think that you are helping also , there is so much for you to do to save animals and to open the eyes of the meat eaters than to go in a battle with a man that is in the same side with you. Pointless at all the meanings. Give and spend your energy for the animals. ( sorry for my english and thank you for the opportunity to write a comment.)

    • I’m not going “in a battle”. I am criticizing his approach because it’s violent. I can help animals AND criticize Gary Y. It IS possible to do both. And the animal rights movement, such as it is, needs a lot of critical thinking and questioning, because there is a lot wrong with it, including Gary Y.

      Your English is fine 🙂 Thank you for your comment.

  86. […] to dudes like this who use hate to relate to people and then expect them to then choose love. https://donchaknow.wordpress.com/2015/03/30/vegans-please-stop-promoting-gary-yourofsky/ It is like those people who use guns to spread peace. This guy uses hate (toward people) to try to […]

    • Interesting. If you want to know about veganism and have questions, please ask. I promise not to throw chairs at you or tell you that you deserve to be raped. I can, however, provide info.
      One thing you really, really should read: Eat Like You Care by Gary Francione and Anna Charlton. Quick read, easy to understand, effectively demolishes all arguments against veganism in a polite way.

  87. group of black literally harass whites for no reason:

    OH MY GAWD BUT LIYKE PRIV PLUS POWER UR SOOOO IGNORANT

    Bitch, just because one cannot be racist to whites doesn’t mean bigotry is okay. Bigotry is never okay. Making someone feel like shit for no reason is fucked up.No, it isn’t systematic (though that’s a very Western view, my friend from Asia is sick of this Western-centric way of thinking) but it’s still fucked up do you seriously not agree? Damn. Social Justice Warriors really are a horrible, cult-like dehumanizing group of morons.
    Get off wordpress and go to tumblr you ugly cunt.

  88. Gary Yourofsky has done so much more the animal rights movement than you will ever hope to or try to achieve. So whilst you’re taking the soft n’ gentle approach that’s easiest for you, buying your soy lattes and your burgers hold the cheese, Gary is off putting his money where his mouth is and actually making CHANGE.

    • Well, first, it’s not a goddamned competition. But thanks for that. Second, I don’t take the “soft n gentle” approach. Which you’d know if you’d actually read anything I have ever written here. Also, for the record, I don’t buy soy lattes and burgers-hold-the-cheese, and you don’t know me so where do you even get off saying that shit to me, but you do you, lady. Stay classy.
      Gary is not putting his money where his mouth is. He’s spouting violence, and misogyny. If you are okay with that, then you do you. I am not okay with it. And fuck you very much for coming onto my blog and spewing this ignorant shit to me. Feel free to not come back….and take your abject stupidity with you.

  89. He does a great job , he promotes what he trully loves and believes in , he can not be indifferent to injustice and violence that happens towards animals , so he is tough , but absolutely right…

    • He could do a great job by toning down the violence. I am not asking that he drop his in-your-face approach to non-vegans–I actually like it. What I don’t like is his saying that women who wear fur should be raped. If you think he is “absolutely right” about that, you can GTFO.

      • Yeah, I forgot about that comment of his! That was a bit extreme.

      • I’m sorry, “a bit extreme”? It’s “a bit extreme” for a person who has not been vegan all his life to now tell non-vegans that they deserve to be violently raped? He’s said other things to, involving skewers and eyeballs and other filthy and disturbing things, so it’s not like it was an isolated occurrence. He’s a violent, angry man. And it’s more than a “bit” extreme. It’s just plain wrong.

      • Well, I had only seen one or two of his Youtube speeches. I will take your word for it, since you seem to be more familiar this this guy than I.

        He must be be pretty awful if he can offend such a hard-core vegan such as yourself!

      • LOL I’m not really “hard core” 🙂 I just try to be consistent in my commitment to non-violence. Sometimes I fail–I am not perfect. But I just find Gary Y so abominable and offensive, I don’t understand how anyone can like or idolize him. He’s just gross.

  90. ignorant is someone like you why you dont want your family getting hurt as they hurt another living species that feels just as your family does i know hate is not the answer and i dont support that but stop talking bullshit because it proves that you know what you do to animals is fucked up and you dont want that to your love ones so go and learn good things and spread it instead of this english my third language just to give you an example of using your time

    • Alright, I’m done being polite with you, you steaming pile of shit. I am vegan, so don’t talk to me about what I “do to animals”. I speak out against violence perpetrated against animals, you ass-hat! And if you think for one second that Gary Y, or any other psychotic crusader, has the right to be violent to non-vegans because of what they do to animals, you are out of your goddamned mind. I have said here a thousand times before–GARY WAS NOT BORN A VEGAN. And no one threatened to kill or harm HIM. But he still went vegan. So why the ever-loving fuck can you not understand that anyone can go vegan, if we educate them and support them. WE DO NOT HAVE TO THREATEN TO RAPE THEM. Can you get that through your thick goddamned skull? No? Then take your stupidity and get the hell off my blog.

  91. If veganism means no domestication of animals then I’m afraid that’s only possible in a country where petrol is cheap and plentiful.
    Is it also wrong to kill insects and mice which destroy your crops? Is it right to wage war and destroy a country to ensure a supply of oil?

    • For a “rationalist”, you are awfully irrational. And unable to comprehend what you read.

      No, the abolition of the domestication of animals is NOT “only possible in a country where petrol is cheap and plentiful”. Not sure why you are saying that. We don’t need to eat, wear, or otherwise exploit animals for any purpose, period. I don’t give a shit what country it is; there are other fucking ways of doing things.

      And fuck you about the harming insects and mice by growing crops goddamned bullshit. Enough, OK? That is a fallacy, and you and I both fucking know it. You harm a fuck of a lot MORE animals by growing crops to feed to animals and then slaughtering animals to eat needlessly. So fuck you.

      Also, if this is the whole stupid “if you can’t be ‘pure’ vegan, then why bother doing anything at all?” bullshit argument, you can eat a bag of dicks. It is a stupid fucking thing to say or think. We may not be able to be “perfect” or “pure” vegans, whatever that even means, but we can sure as shit do better than needlessly slaughtering billions of sentient beings every fucking year because they taste yummy. Mmmmkay? Can your little brain wrap itself around that thought?

      What the fuck are you talking about, waging war to ensure oil? Get the ever loving fuck out of here if this is the stupid troll shit you are coming here to spew. Seriously. Get lost.

  92. I see the point of this article, but we need a certain amount of “hard-headed” vegans and tough vegans to repel the bullshit testosterone myths that the non-vegans are so fond of using.

    The non-vegans seem to lose most rational arguments on diet and health, so they resort to psychopathic bullying. They will try to present the vegan as some kind of “wimp”. Gary does a good job in turning the tables, and presenting the non-vegans as the wimpy ones.

    This is not my personal favorite approach, but when non-vegans start resorting to ridicule; I get angry too. There are people from the dairy and meat industries saying all sorts of lies and smears about veganism.

    These assholes shouldn’t be treated gently. They are influencing public opinion while posing as a regular Joe. Some people are naive and believe in their lies and appeals to popularity.

    • Right, but again, you are positing only two ways of handling non-vegans: treating them “gently”, or throwing chairs around and telling them they deserve to be raped.

      As I have said, I favour a more in-your-face, honest approach to non-vegans. As in, I don’t favour the “namaste”, “personal journey”, “veganism isn’t for everyone” BS approach. I favour the approach in which we present rational arguments in a way that respects and acknowledges the fact that we, too, were once non-vegan, and we think non-vegans are capable of making the change, as we did. I favour the approach where we don’t just automatically go off on people and assume every single non-vegan is a psychopathic asshole who loves torturing animals.

      Here’s the thing: I’m not sure what inspired YOU to go vegan, but for me, it was when I found the Vegan Freak forums online (now defunct, unfortunately) and I listened to vegans talking about veganism. I saw how they answered various questions, sometimes bluntly but never disrespectfully, and it just made sense to me. And I went vegan immediately once I got what they were saying, which was pretty fast. I didn’t waste time on vegetarianism–which Gary Y seems to promote, as he praises Beyonce pretty heavily and she’s not any kind of vegan but vegetarian-ish–I just went all-out vegan. If I can do it without someone telling me I deserve to be raped, then anyone can. And did Gary Y have someone waving their arms around at him and screaming at him that HE deserved to be raped? Is that what it took for HIM to go vegan? No. It wasn’t. But because he’s now vegan, he for some reason feels that he has the right–no, the moral imperative–to treat other human beings like garbage. He conveniently forgets that not that long ago, he was exactly like the very people he now says deserve to be violently raped.
      He is awful.

  93. Hear me out…
    Gary Yourofsky says in EVERY SINGLE ONE of his lectures that meat-eaters (even stubborn ones who “will never go Vegan”) are NOT EVIL PEOPLE but that they are just GOOD PEOPLE DOING EVIL THINGS. (Please note that I am only using all-caps for emphasis; not for yelling.) Gary is more radical, yes, but we need radicals – ***every anti-discrimination, pro-freedom movement has needed radicals.*** And if you don’t believe that radicals are necessary for change, please just open up a history book. Gary just doesn’t sugarcoat the truth and we need more speakers like that. Period.

    • No, YOU hear ME out. Gary Y was not born vegan, but for some reason feels that now he is vegan, he has the right to say atrocious things about non-vegans, for example that people who wear fur deserve to be savagely raped.

      I am not against “radical”, necessarily. But he’s not “radical”. He is just violent, and scary.

      And like a lot of other Gary Y lovers, you are setting up a false dichotomy. There are not two options for how to educate others about veganism: “sugar-coating” or “radical”. There are other options, that folks like you keep insisting on ignoring–reasonable, rational, NON-VIOLENT vegan education. Like Gary Francione. Who the hell wants to go vegan after being told that unless you do, you deserve to be raped and/or killed?

      Stop defending this guy. He is seriously just awful.

  94. I’m a little confused about how you talk about Gary being terrible because he is violent, but a high percentage of your replies have been abusive and hateful, and some have also been violent (you actually tell someone to go jump off a bridge). Gotta walk the talk. I understand your post, but I’m not seeing a lot of integrity. Did you just want Google clicks? Certainly worked.

    Not trying to beat you down – just confused by your approach and bedside manner.

    • As I’ve stated before, I have no problem with people who honestly want to engage in intelligent discourse about veganism and animal rights. What I have absolutely no patience for, however, is people who come onto this blog–which is my personal place to post whatever I want to post–and insult me and attack me for what I am saying without ever once engaging critically with me.

      I have already said numerous times I am not interested in being a “nice”, “namaste” vegan. I say what I think, and you can agree with me or not. I am fine with people disagreeing when they have reasoned, rational reasons for doing so and argue their ideas effectively. I am actually fairly nice with many of my comments, but with people repeating the same things over and over again without ever actually listening to my responses or to anything I am saying on this blog, using ad hominem attacks right out of the gate and insulting me, I lose a lot of patience. I am human, and sometimes I am all outta patience and done with being any kind of “nice”. I’ve already addressed this in a separate post regarding the “tone” of my blog.

      You may think that is lacking “integrity”. Okay. That’s your opinion. The thing is, I don’t OWE anyone “nice”. If you come on here and interact with me respectfully (as you have) and don’t get defensive without even considering what I am saying, then I am “nice”. I give what I get. And if people don’t like that, I have already stated that I really don’t care. I am not about clicks, or “Likes” or whatever. I am on here to put my thoughts into the world in my own way. Like it, or don’t. Either way, it’s not on me.

      Thanks for stopping by. I appreciate that you took the time.

    • I have looked over the earlier comments on this post, and there is something I really feel I need to address here: this idea of being “nice”.

      So, I write a blog post about how Gary Y is a frightening “animal rights” advocate, because I see the animal rights movement as one that should be predicated upon peace. It should be a PEACEFUL movement. I don’t think I am being unreasonable in that assertion.

      I point out things that Gary Y has said that are NOT peaceful–that, indeed, are incredibly violent and disturbing–and I get a bunch of Gary’s fans coming on here defending him, saying it’s OK that he’s angry because he’s a vegan and he’s tired of non-vegans not listening to him. No one admits that maybe things would be better if he were nicer to non-vegans. Everyone keeps defending his not-niceness, listing all these reasons for it.

      Then I get annoyed at some of this, as I am getting ad hominem attacks and insults from people who refuse to critically engage with anything I’m saying. They are just blindly defending Gary Y. So I get impatient, and annoyed, and frustrated with this astounding lack of logic, thought and ability to discuss this in a rational, objective manner, and I respond to these people in ways that some people are not considering to be “nice”.

      But instead of defending ME for all the BS I tolerate on this blog from the hordes of Gary Y supporters who come here not to engage in any meaningful discussion but to lob shit grenades at me, people start telling me I need to be “nice”.

      I really, really hope that at least some of you see the irony and utter hypocrisy of defending an angry white vegan man who says atrocious things like non-vegans deserve to be brutally raped, and refusing to admit he could be a whole hell of a lot nicer, but then coming on here, where I call out Gary Y’s shit behaviour, and TELLING ME I SHOULD BE “NICER” on my blog.

      I mean–you can see the irony here, right? An angry white guy says nasty shit, but it’s okay because he’s Gary Y and he’s “helping animals”. But little old me, sitting here saying maybe Gary Y should tone down some of that incredibly offensive garbage he spouts, I get told to shut the eff up, stop “hating” Gary because he’s helping animals so much, and be “nice”.

      ….so Gary Y doesn’t have to be nice because not being nice makes him a “radical” and “effective” animal rights advocate. But MY not being nice just makes me a mean bitch.

      LOL. OK guys. I stand by every single thing I have said on this blog, including every single comment, nice or not.

      Wake up, people.

      Edited to add:

      I also feel the need to point out that people telling someone to be “nice”, the way I am being told to be “nice” by people reading my blog, has, for a very long time, been a very effective way of silencing women. I might do a post on that soon, because it’s becoming a bit of a trope on my own damn blog, and that’s not okay.

  95. Hey Joyless! I think this may be off topic for this thread, but I think pro-dairy propagandists are stalking the internet. Listen to a few of these comments on the raypeatforum.com:

    I can conclusively say that milk without a doubt is the best and least estrogenic protein source out there. I kind of laugh when I hear this stuff because America is inundated with soy protein and oils as an alternate to animal sources and that sh- is 100 times more estrogenic. People have been drinking milk for centuries.

    I destroyed that guy pretty quick; two blatant lies in that comment. And then comes in this character named “milk_lover” with this drive-by propaganda:

    Do people following Ray Peat really put soy next to the best food on the planet, milk? shaking my head.

    And that wasn’t even worth a reply.

    I think these comments come from dairy shills. The first quote came from someone whose pro-milk-based comments represented 14/18 of his total comments on the forum!

    I dug-up some good studies to prove them wrong; and they basically gave-up. For the entire heated exchange, click here.

  96. Oh, wow, yeah they obviously have some sort of vested interest in promoting dairy. I mean, there have been lots of studies proving their claims wrong, on all counts. Thanks for sharing!

  97. As a recent convert on the road to vegan-hood I totally agree that GY is a difficult source to defend. He spits a lot of venom and is very much in the shock-factor/attention grabbing category of activists, which is not bad necessarily but the violent wishes don’t scan with my own (admittedly fleldgling) understanding of what being vegan is. I was attracted by the documentary Cowspiracy and the sensibility of the arguments put forward in that documentary and in other forums/websites I read afterwards.

    I’ve also noticed on GY’s FB page that he seems to delete/block anyone who posts a comment that isn’t telling him how great he is (I didn’t post. I just read a few comments where he said he had done this) which makes me skeptical of him immediately.

    He implies comparisons between himself and Malcolm X among others. I can see this being accepted on the face of it but if you know about Malcolm X, the more you read/hear from GY, the more you see, Malcolm was indignant/passionate/determined, whereas GY is angry to the point of rage. Men like Malcolm are admired by all people. Men like GY seem to be supported mostly by self-righteous vegans who believe themselves superior to other people. It’s a little bit like a vegan version of Trump’s America. These are the very people that made me dismiss being vegan for so long.

    Anyway just wanted to write to give you some support as you have taken a lot of repetitive crap for having an opinion.

    Stay positive!

    • Thanks very much for stopping by to offer support! 🙂 Much appreciated. I think you summed it all up nicely with this:

      Men like Malcolm are admired by all people. Men like GY seem to be supported mostly by self-righteous vegans who believe themselves superior to other people. It’s a little bit like a vegan version of Trump’s America. These are the very people that made me dismiss being vegan for so long.

      That is it exactly. Those are the self-righteous, violent and, frankly, hypocritical vegans no one likes. Mind you, most non-vegans dislike vegans right off the bat anyway–my experience has been that the mere admission that I am vegan is enough to set some folks off. But people like Gary Y and his followers are not helping in any way. It’s not like Gary Y was born vegan–he got there somehow without rape threats. But for some reason he thinks others can’t. Just…ugh.

      Thanks again for commenting!!

  98. Gary turned many people into following a vegan lifestyle and he does not hurt anybody. Sometimes facts have to be put into harsh words to be understood. For many people his YouTube lecture is a very effective way to realize some things which were formerly buried in the subconscious.

    • …..I don’t really care if he’s turned many people to veganism. “He does not hurt anybody”–I call bullshit. Words can hurt, and he is both sexist AND racist, which is, you know, incredibly HURTFUL. I am sick and tired of people defending this dipshit and his violent rhetoric. For the ten thousandth time, I DO NOT GIVE A SINGLE SHIT how “effective” you think he is. He is VIOLENT. And he WAS NOT BORN VEGAN. No one threatened him with violence, yet he became vegan. So why does he now feel that violent rhetoric is the only way to get others to understand?

      I am sick and tired of arguing with people who cannot be bothered to read the replies I have ALREADY made to this exact same sentiment. Please just stop coming here to comment unless you (general you, not you in particular) have something new and intelligent to say. This is neither.

      • You have to reply to every single comment don’t you? You seem more angry than Gary. We all say bad things, the wrong words slip out while we let our emotions carry us. It’s not the end of us and our intention. Yes he said these aweful things but he doesn’t say then anymore. Enough.

      • …if I don’t reply to every comment, I get criticized. Can’t win.
        Also, not angry. Annoyed with and disappointed in other “vegans” who don’t get that sexism and racism are forms of oppression too and fully support a sexist, misogynist, racist man……….yes. Angry, not so much.

        Those words indicating that people who wear fur should be raped don’t just “slip out”. I don’t care if he doesn’t say them anymore. First, I see no evidence he’s no longer violent, and second, he’s not apologized for what he said……so, yeah. It’s not “enough”. Get lost if you don’t agree.

      • Joyless vegan indeed.. I think you and Gary have a lot in common. Keep inspiring non vegans. Maybe you’re just wasting your time with vegans.. giving Gary and his words too much importance.

      • Think what you like. Literally no one cares.

      • Hi Joyless Vegan,

        thanks for the reply.

        > I don’t really care if he’s turned many people to veganism
        I cannot really believe this because you also try to convert people to veganism. It’s the animals that count because they are the most abused beings today and in the past.

        > Words can hurt
        You are completely right. My argument is flawed on this point. Verbal violence is also violence. Sorry.

        > and he is both sexist AND racist
        I wonder where he showed that? He is a misanthrope. A misanthrope can still love his friends and family (see Wikipedia).

        > defending this dipshit and his violent rhetoric
        I can understand this from your point of view because you don’t like him. I think from the animals point of view; they don’t care if some human animal tormentor (meat eater) feels a bit sad because another human said some harsh words in a YouTube video.

        > I DO NOT GIVE A SINGLE SHIT how “effective” you think he is. He is VIOLENT
        I am vegan and most of my family is not. I don’t think they are evil. Your very own speech in the Gary Y. context sounds violent. Non-vegans or people who don’t at least try ARE violent against animals. If someone feels threatened by G. Y. he/she can stop the YouTube video and watch something else. It is not that he is sitting in your living room and hits you. It is like television, you can always turn it off.
        If I watch television and hear to what most politicians say all the time… this is what I would call violence. Because it beats my brain out.

        > And he WAS NOT BORN VEGAN.
        like almost all other humans

        > No one threatened him with violence, yet he became vegan.
        As I watched his speech I did not feel threatened. He does not threaten his audience. He rather insults them by implying non-vegans are emotionless idiots (IF they are presented the facts and ignore them)
        People are different: there seems to be at least one group of people that are glad that G. Y. brought them to veganism. I don’t believe that you don’t care if these people would still harm animals. Your other blog posts show otherwise.

        > When I became vegan, I didn’t do so because some angry white man was in my face screaming at me that I deserved to be raped, tortured and killed for being a non-vegan.
        Good for you. But the speech can be perceived in different ways. For me – and probably most G. Y. supporters – the revenge thing is a minor aspect of the speech. It is not the main part what I took out of the speech. It is the arguments. And focusing on the victim’s point of view.

        Here is a suggestion because you frequently accuse people for not reading all your comments: since you reply to all the comments here and there are many and these comments often say the same, you are referring in your comments to previous comments of your’s. It gets really complicated to follow all those paths. What about edit your original post or start a new one where you incorporate all the clarifications you made the comments. Especially those you have to repeat over and over. Then you could reference specific parts of the original post which is easier to track.

        Happy blogging. 🙂

        P.S.: a great deal of people who comment here and don’t read everything through probably came here because this post is listed on one of the top positions in Google.

    • Hi Joyless Vegan,
      Hi.

      thanks for the reply.
      No problem.

      > I don’t really care if he’s turned many people to veganism
      I cannot really believe this because you also try to convert people to veganism. It’s the animals that count because they are the most abused beings today and in the past.
      My point is, regardless of how many people he has supposedly “converted”, which is debatable, there is no excuse for saying that people deserve to be raped (among other things–he’s said some nasty things.)

      > Words can hurt
      You are completely right. My argument is flawed on this point. Verbal violence is also violence. Sorry.

      > and he is both sexist AND racist
      I wonder where he showed that? He is a misanthrope. A misanthrope can still love his friends and family (see Wikipedia).
      He had a whole rant against Palestinians. And no, you cannot “love” your family and friends and simultaneously tell them they deserve to be raped, etc., because they are not vegan.

      > defending this dipshit and his violent rhetoric
      I can understand this from your point of view because you don’t like him. I think from the animals point of view; they don’t care if some human animal tormentor (meat eater) feels a bit sad because another human said some harsh words in a YouTube video.
      It has nothing to do with my “liking” him. It’s not about “harsh” words. It is about the fact that even though Gary Y was not himself born vegan, now that he IS vegan, he thinks the world of himself and thinks it gives him license to tell other human beings who are not vegan that they deserve violence and death. That isn’t “harsh”. That is SICK.

      > I DO NOT GIVE A SINGLE SHIT how “effective” you think he is. He is VIOLENT
      I am vegan and most of my family is not. I don’t think they are evil. Your very own speech in the Gary Y. context sounds violent. Non-vegans or people who don’t at least try ARE violent against animals. If someone feels threatened by G. Y. he/she can stop the YouTube video and watch something else. It is not that he is sitting in your living room and hits you. It is like television, you can always turn it off.
      If I watch television and hear to what most politicians say all the time… this is what I would call violence. Because it beats my brain out.
      Yeah, okay, I’m not sure what you are even saying here. Sure, they can turn off the YouTube speech–what is your point? Gary Y promotes violence among his worshippers….I mean, followers. You can always pick one out, because they sound just like him in their violent wishes for non-vegans. I am not violent like Gary Y–aggressive in wanting people to see what he is, perhaps, but not violent. I am not calling for non-vegans to be raped and killed. I don’t celebrate online every time there is a story of a hunter being killed. Not sure how you are equating me with him but whatevs. You are wrong.

      > And he WAS NOT BORN VEGAN.
      like almost all other humans
      Yeah, but unlike others, Mr Y seems to think that even though no one screamed at him, threw chairs at him or told him he should be raped, killed, or have his eyeballs skewered (yes, he said this)….so why does he think he now has the right to treat others this way? And please don’t say the animals would be okay with it like that is some sort of justifications.

      > No one threatened him with violence, yet he became vegan.
      As I watched his speech I did not feel threatened. He does not threaten his audience. He rather insults them by implying non-vegans are emotionless idiots (IF they are presented the facts and ignore them)
      People are different: there seems to be at least one group of people that are glad that G. Y. brought them to veganism. I don’t believe that you don’t care if these people would still harm animals. Your other blog posts show otherwise.
      You are missing my point. How many people he has supposedly converted is irrelevant to me. The ends do not justify the means. And yes, he certainly does threaten a lot of violence. Perhaps not in the “greatest speech ever” but certainly elsewhere, as I have proven in the comments by providing links.

      > When I became vegan, I didn’t do so because some angry white man was in my face screaming at me that I deserved to be raped, tortured and killed for being a non-vegan.
      Good for you. But the speech can be perceived in different ways. For me – and probably most G. Y. supporters – the revenge thing is a minor aspect of the speech. It is not the main part what I took out of the speech. It is the arguments. And focusing on the victim’s point of view.

      Right, and we can do that WITHOUT THREATENING VIOLENCE AND SAYING PEOPLE DESERVE TO BE RAPED OR HAVE THEIR EYEBALLS SKEWERED, okay? We can, I promise. Gary Francione does it every single day of his life.

      Here is a suggestion because you frequently accuse people for not reading all your comments: since you reply to all the comments here and there are many and these comments often say the same, you are referring in your comments to previous comments of your’s. It gets really complicated to follow all those paths. What about edit your original post or start a new one where you incorporate all the clarifications you made the comments. Especially those you have to repeat over and over. Then you could reference specific parts of the original post which is easier to track.

      Thanks for the suggestion, but I don’t have time to do what you are suggesting. Maybe someday.

      Happy blogging.🙂
      Thanks, I appreciate that.

      P.S.: a great deal of people who comment here and don’t read everything through probably came here because this post is listed on one of the top positions in Google.
      Great that I am at the top of something 🙂

      • > And no, you cannot “love” your family and friends and simultaneously tell them they deserve to be raped, etc., because they are not vegan.

        I believe this statement shows the core of the misunderstanding in many of the comments here. There are two completely different – both valid – perceptions:

        1) If I think of Mr. Y. I think about how good it is to be converted to veganismn and to have my eyes opened. I don’t have the rape-statement in mind (it is irrelevant to me) and I personally don’t tell anybody anything about the deserveness of being raped. In this way of perception and personal action, liking Mr. Y. does not conflict at all with loving my family and friends. So, do you see that in my state of mind your above statement (“you cannot love …”) is not applicable? (if not offensive for someone else, see the some other commentors)

        2) You repeat and emphasise the rape-statement so heavily that for you Mr. Y. embodies exactly this statement and nothing else (see also most of the things you wrote in your last reply). Naturally, you could not look your family and friends in the eyes and at the same time say positive things about like Mr. Y. Totally understandable.

        > It has nothing to do with my “liking” him. It’s not about “harsh” words. It is about the fact that even though Gary Y was not himself born vegan,

        In his rhetoric Mr. Y. frequently points out that he was not born vegan and that he understands those people up to the point where they should know better. Nobody was born wise.

        > now that he IS vegan, he thinks the world of himself and thinks it gives him license to tell other human beings who are not vegan that they deserve violence and death. That isn’t “harsh”. That is SICK.

        Seen from perception 1), the way you put here again sounds exactly like someone who doesn’t like somebody else.

        But maybe this is because of another misunderstanding: you seem to value humans (men and women) more than animals. Mr. Y. does not: he values animals more than humans. So you and him have an extremely conflicting set of base values. His base values form his rhetorical method (his comparisons, his wishes, his flawed medical and biological arguments). Not everybody who likes Mr. Y.’s speech must automatically share all these values or believes.

        > so why does he think he now has the right to treat others this way?

        Same as above. You and him have no common ground. In his video speeches he does not accuse anyone personally. It is a recorded video. There is no interaction. He doesn’t know the person who watches. He speaks in the most general terms possible (e.g. “to the animals all humans are Nazis”, which is even only a citation). It is rationally not possible to feel “treated” badly.

        > And please don’t say the animals would be okay with it like that is some sort of justifications.

        Why not? It’s the whole point of Mr. Y. speech: save the animals from further terror. That’s why the actual number of converted humans actually count, no matter how they where converted. Do you really think feeling insulted (you/human) is as bad as being physically tortured and killed (animal held for food production)? It is a difference of life and death.

        For me it boils down to that you don’t agree with Mr. Y. in respecting animals more than humans.

        > Every good point he makes about veganism (and he does make a few) is completely negated by the vitriol and violence he continuously spouts, and his violent sexism makes animal advocacy an unsafe space for women activists.

        Most convinced persons I know of (after they watched the speech) ARE female. Or do you have other numbers? Each of these women is now a female activist just by being vegan and demanding vegan products. If some non-vegan person does not understand how to separate the message from the messenger and gets offended, how does this help the animal rights movement in any way? This non-vegan person is maybe just not ready yet. Maybe this person will never be ready. The energy should be put into people who are willing to be convinced.

        Thanks for this good discussion.

      • OK, you can think it’s all my perception if you like and go on defending someone who is not only racist (anti-Palestinian post), misogynist (“chicken periods…eeewww grosssssss” and rape threats) and all-around horrible person (rape threats and general violent thoughts and words, like celebrating online when hunters die).

        If he’s converting women, and they’re okay with the crap he spews, then honestly that just reflects internalized misogyny. I feel sorry for those women.

        It’s not about “feeling insulted”. You keep trivializing the shit this guy says. I’ve linked to it in the comments previously. If you are seriously okay with someone who says the things this guy does about Palestinians, women, and non-vegans in general, then there is nothing more I can say to you. It has nothing to do with “liking” or “not liking” him. He’s a psycho, and his words very clearly demonstrate very disturbed thoughts. If you are okay with that because you think that is somehow saving animals, this conversation is over. That kind of rhetoric does nothing for anyone.

        Thanks for stopping by.

  99. You must be a very lonely person and you think we are gonna listing to fuck. That we love Gary yourofsky so go fuck your self BITCH hahahaha never will I go against him

    • You must be a very silly person to come onto a blog and leave that inane comment.
      You must be a very illiterate person, because “you think we are gonna listing to fuck” makes no sense whatsoever.
      You must be a very misogynistic person to use such sexist language.
      Don’t “go against him”. I seriously don’t care what you do. You mean less than nothing to me.

  100. I like him he talks with passion and informed. He is genuine and amazingly dedicated. Describe what he said( I dont recall because I dont take in this distorted biased way) as wish to non vegans or to people who torture /exploit animals to get the same pain with details, is a calculated attempt to boycott him. When we describe what heinous tortuous animals suffer , and “wish” the torturer feel the same tortures, is not an evil wish that can happen. This is the normal law of Karma: experience precisely what you have infer to other to understand what they felt and went through, there is no other way for the soul s evolution. Twisting as he is cruel to wish happens is in the mind of the accuser the seed of revenge, not in his heart. Who wants get, the others can dwell in what it serves them.

    • I understand the sentiment of “wishing” bad things on those who continue to use animals–I just don’t AGREE with it. So I don’t need it explained to me, thanks. The thing is, you are “wishing” bad things to happen to your own friends and family, and maybe you can do that but I can’t. I love those people, and about ten years ago, I was just like them. I changed; they can too, but not if we tell them they deserve to be raped or killed if they don’t become vegan. Defend that way of thinking all you want, but it’s still wrong.

  101. Reading few comments , Yanina explained perfectly! Everything so good. And really You are an angry envious person, mate! Who agreed with you , I met one on my fb page, are as aggressive and rude as…. I v been rescuing lots of animals in a farming country suffering the hell , an endless work that is upsetting depressing and driving me ill. Take courageous speech controlling emotions while showing horrible images about animal holocaust is the best way to spread seeds to whom is ready , sooner or later. Im glad Yuri exists, ( you even moked his name, shame on you) you’re just a blah blah person. Admit it! ahahahah. Actually talking about him , you make him even stringer. Thank you!

    • No I didn’t “moke” his name. I honestly don’t know if it’s Yourofsky or Youforsky–I have seen it both ways and just honestly don’t care enough to research which is correct. I’ll just call him Gary Y.

      I am glad that you are in animal rescue. I understand how soul-draining it is. I am neither angry nor envious; I am simply pointing out that in order to encourage people to become vegan, it is neither desirable nor necessary to tell them they deserve to be raped, killed or tortured. But I am getting really, really tired of repeating myself on here, and clearly you are NOT reading my responses. I don’t care anymore. You love Gary Y? I give zero shits. Why are you here then?

      • > No I didn’t “moke” his name. I honestly don’t know if it’s Yourofsky or Youforsky–I have seen it both ways and just honestly don’t care enough to research which is correct.

        This make no sense. You spend so much time in replying to the comments here. What you now are saying is effectively this: “I don’t want to spend time to look up Wikipedia and try to figure out why so many people like Gary Y. Because he is a bad person. And everyone who says something to defend him is also a bad person and not worth a little research.” At least this is what is sounds like when you write it. I don’t know you in person. Probably you are very nice. 🙂

      • It makes perfect sense. I give zero shits how his last name is spelled. I care about the disturbing things he says. Youforsky, Yourofsky, who gives a shit? If you are focusing on that, you are missing the entire point of what I am saying here.

      • Wait a sec, I think I misread your misreading of my comment. I will try again.

        > No I didn’t “moke” his name. I honestly don’t know if it’s Yourofsky or Youforsky–I have seen it both ways and just honestly don’t care enough to research which is correct.

        You: This make no sense. You spend so much time in replying to the comments here. What you now are saying is effectively this: “I don’t want to spend time to look up Wikipedia and try to figure out why so many people like Gary Y. Because he is a bad person. And everyone who says something to defend him is also a bad person and not worth a little research.” At least this is what is sounds like when you write it. I don’t know you in person. Probably you are very nice. 🙂

        Me: No, I am not saying i don’t want to spend time online trying to figure out why so many people like him. I know exactly why they like him–same reason Trump got enough votes to get elected. Gary Y is a self-righteous dick. Now that he’s vegan, everyone has to be or else they deserve death. Mind you, he was once a non-vegan, but he’s conveniently forgotten about that. People like him BECAUSE he’s angry, aggressive, in your face, and he yells, swears and treats anyone who questions him like garbage. Apparently, there are a lot of self-righteous animal rights warriors, because he has a lot of fans.

        I never said he was a “bad person”. I said he says bad things. Big difference there. In fact, I am tired of being told I “bash” him. I don’t bash HIM. I bash the scary things he says, so let’s stay clear about that okay? Please?

        And please find where I have ever said that anyone who likes him is a bad person. I have not. What I HAVE said is that I know why people follow him (they mirror his self-righteous attitude and his aggression).

        I didn’t say that anyone who defends him is not worth a little research. What does that even mean? What I said was that with all the shit he says and does, the exact spelling of his name really doesn’t seem like a hill to die on.

        Thanks.

  102. Got it, wolf! YOU LOVE Yuri!! yesss., But you are in denial, because he will reject you. Such anger and continue criticism and no listen other people wonder ow can you have opened a blog, lol! Go and visit him , and stop saying he wishes rapes and all that bs to others, Thats a lie, your interpretation that serves your dark desire to really wish that! funny huh? ! and now, send vitriol, so familiar word , against meee.,..ahahahah

    • ……….are you insane? It’s not a “lie”. It is well documented. But you know what? I am sick and tired of dimwits like you who come here not to engage in any kind of discussion, but to call me names, tell me how stupid I am, and act like an all-around dick. So you know what? Screw off. You are simply not worth my time.

  103. Here we go infighting about how one person communicates his vegan message. The new age type vegans are so hypocritical that it stinks so much. Do you see how animals behave? There are lions that roar and cat that mieow. They are not all the same. And we get the dumb fuck bitch hypocrite that wants to put down Gary Yourovsky because his words express anger. Well so fucking what? I bet you are one controlling bitch – what do you do when you do not get your own way. I have lived in a town where people purport to be gentle – guess what? They stab each other in the back all the time pollute like fuck and FREEZE you DEAD if you don’t agree with them. So are you like that REALLY? What is that beautiful saying “if you are free from sin cast the first stone” . Most dumb fuck schmuck “oh so fucking gentle my arse” don’t even know what that means. Stop lying you bitch and do something fucking constructive instead of your foul agenda against a brother.

    • ………see, everyone? Here is a perfect example of some dipshit coming onto my blog and without once even reading or considering a single thing I am saying, launching into a vicious and vulgar attack on me. So you know what? I am not going to be nice to this steaming pile of shit. She’s stupid, and aggressive, and doesn’t deserve the basic manners I reserve for decent human beings.

      Susanna, you are a very stupid person. Your comment here makes no sense. Cats meow and lions roar? Thanks for that startling bit of insight–you are truly gifted.

      I don’t care about the town you live in, and I seriously wonder what that has to do with anything or why you felt the need to mention it. In fact, your entire comment is incoherent. Maybe try learning to focus your thoughts so you can write something intelligible.

      Your comment is exactly like every other stupid, loud, aggressive Gary Y lover who stumbles onto this blog or posts all over the internet. You have said nothing new, nothing intelligent, and nothing to challenge me in any way whatsoever. In fact, all you have done is prove my point about A) what a dick Gary Y is, and B) what raging dicks his followers are.

      Get lost.

  104. I don’t agree all the time with Gary, especially about the violence stuff, but I get it, that’s his wish, doesn’t mean he’ll act upon him. And I disagree that people who are inspired by him are as angry and as violent as he is. Well first off, he doesn’t do any violent acts whatsoever, wishing something is different than doing it. And I was inspired by him to go vegan, personally his approach on focusing on moral argument and ethics really works for me. Never have I thought in my life that one day I’m gonna stop eating meat and go vegetarian, let alone vegan (tbh I didn’t even know what vegan is back then) for health reasons, or any reason. I stop for ethics. And like he said, when we go vegan for ethical reason and we get something in return.

    P.S I’m not worshipping him, I do admire him, and despise some of what he says, but most of his arguments are absolutely correct. And I don’t think he does any harm to vegan movement, he still does more good.

    • Again, so what if he inspired YOU to be vegan?? What does that prove? Nothing. It proves nothing. He IS violent, and I cannot tolerate a man who says women who wear fur deserve to be brutally raped. Fuck off, no they don’t. You want to adore him? Go ahead. But I will not stop speaking out against this violent, horrible excuse for a vegan and man. He’s said some things that have merit, but overall, he’s a pretty nasty piece of work. If you are okay with that, you do you. I’m not okay with it.

  105. What is wrong with all of you people who are so opposed to a person having an opinion? Am I the only one who checks urls? In order to reach the bottom where I am posting a reply, I had to scroll and scroll and scroll scroll scroll so far … and on and on and on.. I wasn’t reading as I was scrolling but I did notice a pattern… Yup, we automatically seem to look for patterns huh? IF there isn’t one, we’ll make it up… but that’s not my point.. my point is that there are so many words occupying this webpage…I can’t be sure but I’m guessing that Joyless Vegan has posted more than everyone else combined… Gimme a minute to situate it in my head properly but… for some reason… I’m thinking that maybe she is the one who has posted the most because THIS IS HER PERSONAL BLOG. It’s like traveling across the country so that you can stand outside and picket at a private residence because you don’t agree with how the adults of the household are choosing to invest their money… or maybe you don’t like that one of the residents works at an abortion clinic. Do you really think it’s acceptable behavior to show up on somoene’s front porch with signs and create drama for them because they posted a top ten list of movies that is differerent than your own?.. Wait, what were we talking about just now? I think there’s a kettle or a pot talking shit about … never mind.. I forgot what I was gonna say

  106. Oh, yeah… I remember. what I was gonna say but now I wanna say something else…. and it’s not like it matters because most of the people who posted a reply here probably won’t read any of the other replies posted… and if in fact, they don’t remember how they got here, they probably won’t be able to figure out how to return… but I dont think many intend to return… I believe we’re in a time of … hmmm… I wanna call it drive by opinion… rack in pinion… (sorry, stoned) ummmm… what were we talking about?
    Oh, but just like in a driveby, the intention is to maybe harm but mostly just to shoot out opinions even though nobody asked…… and they probably wouldn’t have even taken the time if they had been required to register for an account…. it’s so easy to instantly have an account when it’s linked to one of the other 4… Interest lost.. instantly.,,, just now. .this is real time….. or not…. nevermind but, wait… did someone accuse you of working for the meat industry?? That was rich…. I was close but damn…. so damn close… I can even taste it but… I can’t reach that level of consciousness… trying to be in the moment…. right here, right now,. but….
    sorry Kylie… consider this a drive by…. Oh, but I will be back…

    • LOL this is one of the best responses I have ever had, and whether you are stoned or not I truly appreciate your words! You are awesome. Thanks for actually taking the time to read what I had to say–that is why I do this blog. Hoping to reach at least a handful of sane, rational people. The others are just noise–drive-by noise!!

  107. I respect my brother’s vegan ways. He doesn’t respect my non-vegan ways. I took the time to understand him as he referred me to a Gary Youofsky youtube video, My brother has since cut me off for a time when I discussed this on comments with Gary he said my brother should not love me any more and the usual I am a murderer and he should have nothing to do with me. His anger made e understand my brother more. I told him he would not have spoken to a cow like that. He deleted my comments. I saw another comment that they wish all non-vegans got cancer and suffered long to death. Its a little nuts really.I respect The Joyless Vegan for your genuine beliefs, I cant respect those that are violent towards non-vegans for their rights and choices.

    • Okay, this is a tough one. I am going to try to explain this to you in a sensitive and caring, non-judgmental manner so that I don’t hurt your feelings and you don’t feel judged as a person.

      I get what you are saying about vegans wishing cancer, etc on non-vegans, and you are absolutely right–there is no excuse for that at all. None. Being vegan means caring about all animals, the human ones included, so there is no justification for those hurtful comments and I am truly sorry that you experienced that.

      And Gary Y was incredibly cruel in saying your brother should not love you anymore. That is just sick. None of my family is vegan, but I still love them. Eleven years ago, I was also non-vegan, so how can I now hate them for being what I myself used to be? So again, I am so very sorry that this is how you’ve been treated. You do NOT deserve that.

      However, as a vegan, your brother will never be able to respect your “non-vegan ways” and this is why. You are making the choice, every day, to harm animals for no reason. There is no need for you to do so, but like almost everyone else on this planet, that is what you do. It’s not a “personal” choice, because it involves victims. Over 50 billion animals–sentient beings who can think and feel–are killed every single year for no good reason. If one includes fish in that number, it increases to over a trillion. That is a lot of suffering and death for no justifiable reason.

      We don’t need to eat or wear animals. We don’t need to go to circuses, zoos or rodeos. We don’t need to breed animals as “pets”. We do these things because we can. We do it because we regard all animals as mere things we can use in whatever way we please.

      Vegans understand that this is wrong.

      That does not excuse how you have been spoken to and treated–there is no excuse for that, as I have said.

      But please understand that vegans will never “respect” the choice of non-vegans to continue to needlessly use and kill billions of animals every year. We cannot “respect” that choice. We cannot ever be okay with what you are doing.

      However, even though your brother cannot respect your behaviour or your actions, he can still respect you as a human being. This is why Gary Y frustrates and angers me so much–the way he talks to and about non-vegans is horrifying. We can refuse to respect a person’s decision to exploit animals and educate them in a kind and thoughtful manner about why. We can think that what non-vegans do is immoral, but we don’t have to be cruel to them. We can separate the person from their actions.

      I am sorry your brother will not do so.

      I hope this helps in some way. Thanks very much for reading what I have to say and commenting.

      • Thank you for understanding the relational issues with my brother. It is out of brotherly love and trying to make an effort to understand his beliefs and lifestyle that I watched the video. I sincerely appreciate your comments regarding Gary’s attitudes.

        With regards to my choice to be a non- vegan, it is an educated choice. I am a committed Christian and therefore the Bible is my reference point. I don’t believe it is possible for any Christian, Jew or Muslim, that has beliefs founded on the Torah, Old Testament and or New Testament, to be a vegan (unless it is purely for health reasons and not because of the animal cruelty aspect). Why do I say this? Not because the Bible condones cruelty to animals, most definitely not. However, the Bible does provide multiple accounts of animal sacrifices and consumption of meat and fish etc. Jesus is referred as the sacrificial lamb without blemish. The altar at the entrance to the tabernacle was a bloody place where animals were sacrificed and burnt as offerings to God. I recognise the fact that all animals experience pain, and I can’t answer for God as to the depth of their soul, but most definitely the Bible does not place them equal to us, in fact according to Genesis we have dominion over animals and are instructed to rule and reign over them. Further, domesticated animals were used for transport, e.g. donkey.

        So, I believe we are to show care for animals (Romans 12), but if you add the Christian, Jewish and Islamic population of the world then there is not much place for vegan beliefs to ever be a majority, as much as we respect your concerns, our belief system essentially places animals for our pleasure and “below” us. Don’t shoot this messenger as I am just relaying the content of the Bible as similarly believed across major faiths.

        When it comes to the slaughter of animals I believe it should be done as quick and painless as possible. Yes I am also disturbed at the extreme videos shown by Gary Yourofsky, but punching cows and disrespecting animals during the slaughtering process that they experience unnecessary additional pain is disturbing, but mostly these are exceptions and extreme idiots that are shown in the videos, with purpose to traumatize the viewer, though a normal dairy farm is generally a peaceful and controlled environment, without any depraved idiot bashing a cows head with a fist or an implement!

        Further, I am sure you have heard this argument before, but where do you draw the line for killing sentient beings? Vegetables are sprayed with iinsecticides which kill all sorts of sentient beings. Millions of mice are killed world wide through machinery used during preparation of the soil etc.

        I believe not my own beliefs, but what I am instructed by God though the Bible, as the Jews and Muslims also share the Torah there is similar belief across these faiths.

        This is my educated belief system. The legal and dictionary definition of murder does not include animals.

        Nevertheless, I respect the concerns and cause of vegans. I just wish the militancy and arrogance of most vegans would allow respect in return for non vegans, as many of us have. educated and faith based decisions, we are not all ignorant idiots. Hopefully all non vegans would not promote unnecessary harm and cruelty to any of God’s creatures, but only the necessary killing of animals for consumption, with as much respect for the animal as possible in the process, the animal that has been provided for our consumption, by God.

        This is why I am a non vegan with good conscience.

      • Grant, I’m not Christian but some of my Christian friends have another translation of the bible and nowhere does it state that we should kill animals. Similarly, there is another translation of Quran. Of course, we have dominion over animals because of our intelligence, it is not ruling or making them suffer or slaving or killing them, it is protecting them that is how conservation works, Noah, saved the animals from the flood. The King is the saviour of all, the strong protects the weak. There is a wrong notion that it is survival of fittest the law of life and the circle of life is true but that is not strict, there are other circles of life/death. I’m not against your belief but just giving you an idea that there is misleading information and there are Muslim Vegan and Christian Vegan and they also believe their books.
        Although plants being living they have no thought process or emotions and they don’t feel pain, they don’t suffer, they have right to live but we cannot survive without plants (unless we are breatharians). Animals suffer and there is no such thing as humane slaughter I was open-minded and chose veganism, as there is no problem in being one. I consider animals as relatives/friends, I would also suffer if I was in their position.

      • Hi Mayur, thanks for your comment. Those Christians who have another translation/interpretation of the Bible are definitely not correct as animals are clearly killed and sacrificed in the tabernacle (and elsewhere) and eaten throughout the Old Testament (eg. the ram replacing Isaac with sacrifice etc etc) and with references in the New Testament (The father celebrating the return of the Prodigal Son instructs the servants to kill the fattened calf etc etc). Noah saving the animals in the Ark is a practical way for God to continue to provide sustenance/meals (meat) to humanity after the flood, as well as save certain species (“clean” animals (for eating) = quantity of 7; “unclean” animals = quantity of 2 were saved only – makes sense). Your Christian friends I assume are not well versed in the Bible, as it is impossible to ignore multiple meat eating/sacrificial stories throughout the Bible. Christians can be vegans if they want to, but my God of the Bible doesn’t expect that of them at all, in fact God promotes sacrificing animals and eating meat. If anybody does not like or agree with that then they shouldn’t argue with me, but to God Himself, as the Christian Bible is very clear on this all over the place – and believed by a large chunk of our population!

        I have no intention to convince any vegan to be a non vegan, and impose my lifestyle upon any other, my defenses of my non vegan ways are purely to show that there are respectable educated non vegans who care about our planet, but who have a differing opinion. Degrading and disrespecting non vegans is really pathetic (though this comment is not directed at you as this conversation stream is refreshingly respectful and light thank you kindly!). Vegetable farming kills millions of mice every year, I don’t hold vegans accountable and call them mice murderers! Eating too much meat and not eating meat at all are both proven to be unhealthy. We are designed (by who?) to require a certain amount. You have heard it said that the number 6 and 9 can be looked at from either side, and both parties will be correct in their arrogant determination as to what the number represents! I believe Vegans need to be more respectful of educated non vegans without abusive confrontational arrogance (Gary Yourofsky is most definitely not the only one!).

        I genuinely respect your vegan ways. I hope all those vegans reading this will genuinely somehow find it in them to respect mine (and other) non vegan ways.
        We all share this world.

      • Hi Grant.

        The Bible is not meant to be taken literally, and societies change with the times. I sincerely hope you aren’t “sacrificing” animals in this day and age 🙂 The Bible says all kinds of things that are morally questionable, and it contradicts itself often.

        I also have to ask, what kind of God would create sentient beings, capable of feeling pain and knowing suffering, and then allowing one species to inflict vast amounts of pain and suffering on them, for no justifiable reason? That is not a very good God, and certainly one I reject.

        I am going to quote Gary Francione here, from Eat Like You Care:

        Francione points out that in the beginning, no one was eating animals. In Genesis, God told humans that he gave them every herb bearing seed…and every tree…bearing fruit…and this was to be our “meat”. So before Adam and Eve disobeyed God, everyone–human and animal–ate plants. It was only after God destroyed the world with the flood that he told Noah humans could eat every moving thing that liveth.

        “So we started off in harmony with God as beings who consumed plants. When we fell out with God and were driven from Eden, God permitted us to kill animals as an accommodation to our imperfect state. The Old Testament at least suggests that we should be moving in the direction of getting back to the ideal state.”

        Prof. Francione goes on to say “The Old Testament, like almost all religious scriptures, is ambiguous at best and contains contradictions. Indeed, the entire problem with using documents like the Old Testament as support for anything is that the Old Testament can be read to support everything, including all sorts of things that we would all acknowledge as terrible, such as human slavery, murder and rape.”

        So, I guess, for me the problem is that people are using these words from over two thousand years ago to apply to modern day society, and it fails. The Bible is a book of stories, like Aesop’s fables, and not a guide to how to live a moral life in the 21st century. Indeed, we might be better served if we followed Aesop’s fables as fervently as some follow the Bible.

        I think we all know that killing animals needlessly is wrong, and since we don’t need to eat them, killing them for consumption is WRONG. Causing pain and suffering is not a right thing to do. The Bible is not some sort of justification of what humans are doing to animals.

        However, I have found that arguing with Christians–or any religious people–is an exercise in futility and aggravation because their beliefs are not based on facts. They are based on their interpretation of the Bible, which varies with each individual and so has absolutely no worth, value or meaning to me at all. But they keep referencing the Bible as though it means something. It doesn’t. Arguing with religious people is like arguing about which colour is prettier–purple or pink? It’s subjective, a matter of belief with no substantive evidence or fact or anything–just one person’s “belief”. Not even informed opinion. Just….belief.

        I am a feminist who advocates for women’s right to abortion. I believe in separation of church and state. The Bible does not give us license to act immorally. I have little patience for outdated religious ideas, so I’ll end there.

        Thanks again for commenting.

        Edited to add: I forgot to address your comment about killing mice. Vegans do not deny that just by existing, we harm some animals. Yes, mice may be inadvertently harmed when we are harvesting plants for food. First, there is an enormous difference between inadvertently harming some animals while we go about living our lives, and deliberately bringing billions of animals into existence just to kill them and eat them when we have no need to whatsoever. Second, as the world embraces vegan thought, humans will find ways to harvest plants without harming mice.

      • Hi TJV my apologies back at work after a three week break and so never made time to respond earlier sorry. You have given much time to responses already, which I sincerely appreciate, and I have enjoyed this respectful interaction, so I will try not to invoke any necessary response, if possible. Only I do wish to enlighten you on current Christianity merely for your interest – no response required (as I have been further educated also in respect of vegan philosophy through this dialogue thank you kindly).

        The Bible is indeed to be taken literally. The Bible is verified by Christian and non-Christian historians as an accurate historical account of actual occurrences, multiple times more so than most other literature which is taught in history in many education systems. New archaeological discoveries are made every decade proving (rather than disproving!) various stories of the Bible. The Bible is a literal historical account of fact.

        Regarding animal sacrifices most definitely we do not do that now you are correct 🙂 The reason being that Jesus Christ is the sacrificial lamb without blemish who is the Son of God sacrificed once and for all for our sins, thus meaning no more sacrifices of animals are required since Jesus died on the cross. Animals were sacrificed in the Old Testament, Jesus was “sacrificed” in the New Testament (this is why we commonly refer to ourselves as New Testament Christians).

        Jews are still living under Old Testament Biblical law (they do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, therefore, they do not embrace the New Testament), however, until the temple is restored in Jerusalem, they are not able to practice the animal sacrifices expected of them. They are still trying to keep the descendants from the Tribe of Levi pure so that there will be Levite Priests to fulfil this role one day.

        Muslims do currently practice the sacrifice of animals during the Hajj and Eid al-Adha.

        The Bible was the moral code and foundation of many country legal systems (and still is for many!). I have been studying the Bible in depth for 20+ years and I have not found or been advised of any contradictions yet 🙂

        We cannot understand everything about God, but there is some logic that God created plants and animals for our consumption – without plants we cannot survive, without animals we have some medical deficiencies – beings are killed through farming plants and animals in order for us to survive – there will never be a way to farm vegetables without killing other living beings. It’s a cycle that God created in order for humanity to survive.You are correct in Genesis and in Revelation there is reference to an ideal. Unfortunately we are not living in that ideal world currently and we cannot make it happen until after judgement, when God makes it happen. Jesus was God incarnate and the only perfect human. He showed fishermen where to catch fish, and he miraculously converted a few fish into meals for 5,000+ people …that is a lot of fish being provided for consumption by Jesus himself.

        Prof Francione is interesting and well educated I am certain, but he is one person with one opinion. The majority of educated theologians will not agree with his interpretations of the Bible. We can interpret any document to fit our beliefs if we want to I agree. Prof. Francione also fits in this category, yet he is the minority with that interpretation, and whom you choose to follow as it agrees with your philosophy – which is understandable and your free choice.

        The Bible is relevant to today actively for more than 10% of the World population. About 30% are Christian and around a third of those being New Testament Bible believing Christians. One just has to read the letters of Paul in the New Testament to see how his writings apply to our modern every day; 1 Corinthians chapter 13 teaches us how to love, the parables of Jesus teach us how to forgive and how to handle money. The Bible tells us about future judgements that we can prepare ourselves in this life, and how to be free through accepting Jesus. The Old Testament Psalms and Proverbs give us life gems of wisdom that can be applied daily to specific circumstances. For Holy Spirit filled modern Christians the Bible is our guide for life in this modern day and the stories and applications can be applied daily.

        “Arguing with religious people is like arguing about which colour is prettier–purple or pink? It’s subjective, a matter of belief with no substantive evidence or fact or anything–just one person’s “belief”. Not even informed opinion. Just….belief.”
        The Bible is divinely inspired truth this is why we refer to it. At least we have a basis. Vegans have no basis but a moral code that is written by themselves, which is even more subjective. So that is fine for you as it is your respected belief. My point exactly! If you agree its all subjective then why do vegans like Gary Yourofsky (and 95% of other vegans) prejudice non vegans for acting on their personal beliefs? Rhetoric point no need for reply 🙂

        Your personal conviction of what is defined as immoral is not in agreement with mine – there is something we actually do agree on 🙂

        What makes you more right than me? What makes me more right than you?

        What is immoral to nearly everybody in this World is to prejudice a person for their personal convictions and beliefs. I ask of all vegans to live their convictions peacefully, without prejudice to others.

        Take care and thanks for your time and responses.
        Much appreciated.

      • Hi Grant,

        thanks for the detailed explanation you gave above. Please clarify if I understood this paragraph correctly:

        > What is immoral to nearly everybody in this World is to prejudice a person for their personal convictions and beliefs. I ask of all vegans to live their convictions peacefully, without prejudice to others.

        What if there is a person who has the personal conviction and belief that it is mandatory to torture and kill as much humans and animals as possible (maybe because he says he read it in a book someone wrote). Should this person not better be stopped? I would say yes, this person should be stopped despite his personal belief. If I understand your above paragraph correctly, you would say this person acts out of a personal belief and we should let him continue this killing (peacefully).

        > The Bible is divinely inspired truth this is why we refer to it. At least we have a basis. Vegans have no basis but a moral code that is written by themselves, which is even more subjective. So that is fine for you as it is your respected belief.

        Actually, the vegan moral code could also be derived from the bible: “Act upon others as you wish to be acted upon”. Today, the moral sensibility of humans tend to extend to non-human animals. So, it is possible for a human to think himself in the place of a cow for example. Nobody wants to be tortured and killed needlessly – for example for milk chocolate which is not needed for survival of human kind. Where would you (or the bible) draw the line of what is needed for survival and what is needless luxury?

        > Those Christians who have another translation/interpretation of the Bible are definitely not correct

        How would a neutral observer determine who is correct: those “wrong” Christians or the Christian group which you are part of? Couldn’t there be a chance that the “wrong” Christians have actually got the correct interpretation and yours might be false? Or because all beliefs are equal you are both right? (Then a neutral observer could at least say which of the two belief systems is better for the innocent animals.)

      • Hi Guest1,

        ->What if there is a person who has the personal conviction and belief that it is mandatory to torture and kill as much humans and animals as possible (maybe because he says he read it in a book someone wrote)

        I don’t really like the implication here that our Bible teaches those things so let’s qualify that first – Christians are not forced (not mandatory) by the Bible to eat meat, but neither is meat denied, eating meat is in fact encouraged as there is much reference to meat consumption. The Bible specifically advises not to prejudice anybody who chooses to eat or not eat meat, so I have specifically said before, I only argue here for vegans to not prejudice non-vegans (ie. Gary Yourofsky for one of many). I genuinely respect you for living your personal convictions – I continue to ask just please leave us non-vegans to live ours.

        “Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions. 2For one man has faith to eat all things, while another, who is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him.” (Romans 14:1-3)

        Regarding the analysis of “who to believe” I would think the following may apply, in my opinion:

        1. What is the majority thought – if more than half the world had the same belief system, and referred mostly the same source/divinely inspired book, then you would wonder if your own moral compass is a bit warped if you believed something different – maybe killing animals for consumption is okay if more than 50% of the world feel the same and believe our God has instructed us to do so, through our religious belief systems. (Christians, Jews and Muslims make up more than 50% of the world population).

        2. Personal study/research – if one has not studied then one’s opinion has less value. If somebody has deeply studied their religion and come to conclusion, or even better many have deeply studied separately and come to the same conclusion, then the opinion holds much weight. I have personally studied the Bible and many religions for 20+ years. There are many individuals and learning institutions world wide that teach and believe the same.

        ->Actually, the vegan moral code could also be derived from the bible: “Act upon others as you wish to be acted upon”.

        I can take one line out of context anywhere from any book and make a belief system thereof – lines and verse from any book need to be taken in context of the paragraph or chapter. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is in context of human relationships. It is in a paragraph about loving your enemies, what to do if somebody strikes you in the face or steals your cloak (no animal reference!). I understand the difference with vegans is they equate animals as equal to humans, which the Bible does not. So vegans refer killing animals to “murder”, whereas the legal definition of murder in any world-wide court of law refers “murder” to humans only. All dictionaries are equal to the legal system with this definition. Vegans choose to create their own definition of “murder” to include animals. Similarly, this verse you quoted above is not a reference to animals. Hence, simply, what we believe and what you believe is different, we have valid beliefs based on Godly inspired documents that the majority of the World believes, so let us be and kindly refrain from prejudice, as we do not prejudice you for your minority beliefs – in fact we respect you.

        ->How would a neutral observer determine who is correct: those “wrong” Christians or the Christian group which you are part of?

        Refer to my first point again. It answers this question comprehensively: World majority philosophy; depth of study – true it doesn’t make it necessarily right, but it does allow for at least an equal respect for that opinion. If 3 billion+ people believe it for logical researched reasons based on divinely inspired writings, then one doesn’t have to believe it yourself, but one should at least respect it and be a little nervous of being incorrect oneself, because most of the world share that belief and maybe you are wrong also? Your interpretations and beliefs are a small minority, and have many question marks (when does the mice, rat and insect killing stop, pesticides and other vegan challenges?). Why should you prejudice me for my opinion which is shared with most of the world, and well researched. At least treat me with the same respect I treat you?

        Deep discussion is always fulfilling as everybody searches for truth.
        Thank you!

        You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free (John 8:32)
        Sanctify them by the truth, your Word is truth (John 17:17)

      • ……….if half the world thought that women should be property, would that make it okay for women to be property? No.

        This whole “majority of people are Christian” says nothing to me except that the majority of people are incapable of critical thought and are thoroughly brainwashed.

        Just because most people think something is a good idea, does not make that thing a good idea. That is not a very good argument–there should be more to morality than the majority rules. Ugh.

      • > I don’t really like the implication here that our Bible teaches those things

        I am sorry. I didn’t mean to implicate this. Now that I read it again it can be interpreted like this, sorry again. I was looking for a graphic example that should demonstrate that a moral system which is derived from a book can also be bad. It should show that rational reasoning can lead to a sound morality without having to refer to an ancient book. Because I understood that you said vegan ethics is rather random which is not.

        > Christians are not forced (not mandatory) by the Bible to eat meat

        Good.

        > eating meat is in fact encouraged as there is much reference to meat consumption.

        Maybe. One could also say that at the time the bible was written they ate not so much meat as we do today and they didn’t know yet how to live well without using animals.

        What does the bible say about today’s industrial animal abuse?

        > The Bible specifically advises not to prejudice anybody who chooses to eat or not eat meat, so I have specifically said before, I only argue here for vegans to not prejudice non-vegans (ie. Gary Yourofsky for one of many). I genuinely respect you for living your personal convictions – I continue to ask just please leave us non-vegans to live ours.

        There was a time not long ago where slavery of black people was also said to be encouraged by the bible. The trick was simple: the slaves were declared as sub human and voila: there is nothing in the bible that sub humans are to be treated equally. This was the personal conviction of many Christian slave owners at that time.

        From the perspective of today would you say that an activist who demanded freedom for slaves should have been silent? (I think the activist was right and the slave owner was wrong. Similarly vegan – or rational – ethics look at the world from a future perspective where you look back and ask yourself what would have been right at _that_ time.)

        > “Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions. 2For one man has faith to eat all things, while another, who is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him.” (Romans 14:1-3)

        Oh. I didn’t know that the bible is so specific about that issue. What comes to my mind here is the following:

        1) This was written without having massive industrial animal abuse in mind.
        2) Surely, God accepts everyone. Even the criminals. And the unrational ones. But wouldn’t you say that rational people would come to the conclusion that abusing animals is not a good thing to do. And that one should at least try to MINIMIZE the harm that is done?

        > 1. What is the majority thought

        Sorry, but this cannot be a serious argument. At the times of Galili Galileo there was only one guy against the entire church. The one guy said the Earth is not the middle of the universe. And in the end he was right. So much about majority thought. This happend in the past (physics, women rights, black rights), happens today (animal ethics) and will happen in the future (who knows what).

        > 2. Personal study/research – if one has not studied then one’s opinion has less value.

        I personally studied much about religion and human behaviour. And my belief is that when I see someone who is harming another innocent being (human child, human adolecent, non-human animal) I have the right (and maybe even the duty) to stand up at least _tell_ the tormentor that he is doing something possibly wrong. Often this formerly uneducated guy isn’t even aware that this actions cause harm.

        > Vegetable farming kills millions of mice every year, I don’t hold vegans accountable and call them mice murderers!

        1. Most of the vegetables are fed to animals. By refraining from eating them even more mice are saved. In your own logic non-vegans are even bigger mice killers. So if you cared about mice you should stop eating animal products.

        2. Vegans acknowledge that killing mice is not a good thing. Veganism is path, no an absolute reference. If some day people would care more about animals then the farmers would invent methods how to do agriculture without harming so much mice. Only because something is not perfect does not mean it is worth nothing.

        > I can take one line out of context anywhere from any book and make a belief system thereof – lines and verse from any book need to be taken in context of the paragraph or chapter.

        Point taken. 🙂

        > “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is in context of human relationships. It is in a paragraph about loving your enemies, what to do if somebody strikes you in the face or steals your cloak (no animal reference!).

        Ok. What about that today, in modern western welfare societies, people tend to extend their compassion to non-human beings? Are these people wrong with their compassion?

        > I understand the difference with vegans is they equate animals as equal to humans, which the Bible does not.

        This is not fully correct. Common vegan ethic does NOT say humans and animals are equal. It is more like respecting an animal as a being with its own needs.

        > So vegans refer killing animals to “murder”

        Some do. But it is not necessary. Obviously it is possible for many humans (who call themselves vegan) to respect animals by not harming them _on purpose_. Or for luxury reasons like cow milk chocolate.

        > Vegans choose to create their own definition of “murder” to include animals.

        Animals suffer under the human dominion, regardless if it is called murder or something else. You see, I don’t look so much at words here but at actions. And from the perspective of the victim.

        > Refer to my first point again. It answers this question comprehensively: World majority philosophy; depth of study – true it doesn’t make it necessarily right, but it does allow for at least an equal respect for that opinion.

        I would say if the majority opinion is harming a minority for no reason then this majority opinion deserves no special respect.

        What is your opinion on homosexuals? The church and the majority of the public think (or thought recently) that these people shouldn’t be treated equally. Some have even the personal conviction and belief that homosexuals should be harassed and put into jail and even murdered. This is the sad case in some (catholic) African states. I cannot believe that this “opinion” should be respected. Or should it?

        > At least treat me with the same respect I treat you?

        I try to. The best I can do is talk to you in a sane way. If I didn’t respect you I would beat you up every time you spend your money on animal products (joke) ;-).

        > Deep discussion is always fulfilling as everybody searches for truth.
        > Thank you!

        Thank you, too.

        Meanwhile I hope that some day the truth about needless animal suffering will be recognized and humans will live in peace with each other AND all other non-human earth inhabitants.

      • Thank you, Guest1, for your thoughtful–and very correct–rseponses to Grant. Much appreciated–you represent vegans well.

      • Yes Guest1 and TJV both of you do represent vegan well. If you were in Durban (South Africa) I would gladly invite you to share a vegan meal with me and my family, with respect.

        @TJV – yes I agree with you. Majority thought is not a definitive argument, but there is some credibility in it. There are but a handful of people that went against the grain and were right …and most of them became famous. All the multitudes who went against the flow and were wrong, you will never hear about them! ONCE AGAIN …I am not saying you (vegan) are wrong, I am just saying if there is solid argument with billions of people for an alternative non vegan belief, then one should have respect for them until you have pure indisputable proof – not a subjective well meaning philosophical thought. Until you have studied the divine writings of religions better than their own members, or proved emphatically that their religion is false, then vegans have no right to claim arrogantly that they are wrong and, with reference to the likes of Gary Yourofsky, berate their lifestyle because it is different to yours – and I am not talking about “my Christian friends” or quoting one or two verses one happened to read on the internet, or totally taken out of context, or interpreted out of sync with well respected theologians and the majority of Christians. Believe it or not Church leaders do not brain wash, as in the dark ages when only clergy was allowed to read the Bible, nowadays questions and discussions and interpretations are welcomed, encouraged and discussed. “Study to show yourselves approved, rightly dividing the Word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15).

        What sounds better?
        – morality according to the majority? (with logical faith based argument) …or…
        – morality according to the minority? (based on well meaning philosophical thought)

        Maybe both equal ….or one slightly more than the other? …and that is exactly my point. At most neither can be written off as absurd, based on the other’s personal and logical researched convictions. I promise you I am not stupid and/or evil.

        @Guest1 – It is difficult to present arguments because we have a permanent challenge that effects every argument. 50+% of the world believes in the Old Testament, but you don’t (or you may have controversial and/or un-researched “guesses” at what we believe). So we believe according to the divinely inspired Old Testament, that animals were given for our pleasure and consumption (but with the charge to take good care of this resource and to enjoy, reign and rule over them) – we will never really agree. We don’t like to hear UNNECESSARY CRUELTY to animals as much as you, but controlled slaughterhouses do not concern us (as long as they comply to government standards) as God created us to eat SOME meat, therefore it is understandable that animals must be killed (in terms of our scriptures and belief). How do we get past that with multitude of arguments – not really? I am happy to agree to disagree, but vegans think we are murdering cruel and evil earth rapists – I can sincerely understand your anger based on your belief systems! But please understand also that we are not cruel murdering evil people as implied (I have a loving caring family, I assume just like you!) – we believe God intended us to eat meat and we eat it, and we realise we are part of a greater eco-system, and hopefully it all balances out correctly even with industrial farming etc.

        What does the Bible say about industrial farming abuse? Nothing that I can remember (and I know the complete Bible very well)? What does it say about insecticides and Antarctic travel and Elephants and whether we must save the whales and Green Peace – nothing much? …the Bible does not always have specific instructions on specific things as it not an encyclopedia, but the important messages what God wants us to know are very clear and relevant to today. The most important being John 3:16.

        Here is a specific Old Testament instruction, an example for your interest…
        “When an ox or a sheep or a goat is born, it shall remain seven days with its mother, and from the eighth day on it shall be accepted as a sacrifice of an offering by fire to the LORD. “But, whether it is an ox or a sheep, you shall not kill both it and its young in one day.” (Leviticus 22:27-28)

        God doesn’t really care much if we eat the meat or not, but He has given certain animals to us for our enjoyment and consumption.

        “But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you.” (Leviticus 11:10) ..this is in the context of consumption therefore in other words creatures WITH fins and scales are edible (ie. normal fish).

        “And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. …” (Leviticus 11:1…) Some exclusions and inclusions which meat should be clean for eating and which not. IT continues further.

        Compassion to animals is most definitely encouraged by God.

        “The righteous care for the needs of their animals,
        but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel.” (Proverbs 12:10)

        I only quote these scriptures to show you that we have a basis for our beliefs and not just a cruel “I want to kill animals and eat meat” type attitude. I can quote many more if you had interest…

        I am 100% with you and I rage with anger when I see unnecessary killing of animals (like a hunter killing a giraffe and posting a pic on facebook etc). Killing certain livestock for consumption or sacrifice to God is the only instances approved by God in the Bible. So I agree with you when it comes to killing for entertainment or clothing I am potentially vegan on those points 😉 One less punch in the face for me 🙂

        Yes there are some differing views and interpretations amongst Christians also ..and differing factions of Muslims, and even some varying thoughts and practices amongst Jews. However, to consider a homosexual not equal is incorrect and unfortunate! We don’t believe the practice of homosexuality is Biblical, but I have anger issues and sometimes I look at a women’s cleavage by mistake, as I am human and I occasionally slip into carnal desires for a vulnerable moment of error …does that make me any better or worse than a homosexual or a drug addict or a murdering thief. We should “hate the sin and love the sinner” …and I am also an equal sinner. Yes I believe homosexual practices (meaning sexual interactions) are sinful according to the Bible, but that doesn’t make any homosexual any more or less sinful than me. We all need Jesus.

        You have both opened my eyes to be more aware of animals so some good has come out of this – an increased compassion to animals that are not killed for consumption – I am taking that further from today! I hope I have educated you somewhat as to some logical reasons why we believe non vegan life is not immoral and cruel. We will never agree but that is okay. I truly understand why it is a little more difficult for you to just accept my ways, that is okay for me I accept it a little more now.

        Probably neither of us will change we share this world 🙂

        You both have my complete respect and thanks for a memorable intelligent educational respectable interaction.

        Grant

      • Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you that there is any credibility in majority thought. Most people believing something does not make that thing right, or true, especially when the belief comes from a book of stories, written thousands of years ago and heavily edited since then to reflect whatever the writers and editors want it to reflect. You seem to think the Bible is the word of some god. It’s not. It’s the words of men, who seek only to maintain their own position of power. The fact that “scholars” study it does not lend it relevance. And again, which “Bible” is right? There is not just one. Which one is god’s? Which one is “right”? How do you know?
        You don’t, because none are “right”.
        And again, your BELIEFS do not entitle you to harm others. If you wish to believe that leavened, rather than unleavened, bread was used in the Eucharist (or whatever), then go ahead because that belief harms no one.
        But when you believe that some made up sky-being has given you implicit authority to slaughter animals to eat when you have no need to do so, that belief is harmful to the animals you are needlessly killing and eating.
        There is no argument against the wrongness of killing animals. None.
        And again, there is no point in arguing about this, because you choose to believe those things for whatever reason and will not entertain the idea that maybe, just maybe, you are not correct to believe those things. You will not challenge those beliefs because you believe your god is in your corner and that makes you a good and righteous person.
        And maybe you are, but killing or using animals is not a good or righteous act. Ever.
        I appreciate the civility of this conversation but again point out the utter futility of arguing with religious people. It cannot be called critical thinking when all you have to further your arguments is a bible. A bible has no relevance, no meaning, no purpose and no value to anyone who does not believe in it. And I don’t, so your arguments are utterly meaningless to me.

      • Hi. I can understand your frustrations with “religious” people who arrogantly think they are the only one’s that are right. 😉

        >>You seem to think the Bible is the word of some god. It’s not. It’s the words of men, who seek only to maintain their own position of power.

        Many non-Christians and atheists completely acknowledge the authenticity of the Bible as a truthful historical account. Your opinion on the Bible is acknowledged, but honestly its not going to change educated and well researched world religion. This will always be the permanent difference of our opinion, which is fine from my desk, but not yours.

        Congratulations to vegans for opposing 100% of the world’s 196 countries’ constituted legal stance condoning livestock farming and the consumption of certain animals. Besides a small 4.2M of the world population short of 100%, congratulations also for opposing all of all the world religions (the exclusion of vegan Jains only). And all that based only on their “built in meter”, and thereby their rejection of one of the most historically verified canons of literature that exists. Further, for your information, the Bible was written over the span of 1500 years by 40 authors. There are 30 authors in the Old Testament and 10 in the New Testament. Many of these authors were from differing decades and had not read each other’s writings – yet the thread and stories remain in sync – that itself is inexplicable and points to the divine; besides architectural and other historical verification.

        “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16) – so it says about itself.

        >>DOES harm someone–it harms the animals

        No not someone (that indicates human) …we refer animals as not “someone”

        >>People who use “The” Bible as a justification for their harmful beliefs (killing animals, oppressing women and homosexuals) are acting immorally.

        Christians practice does by no means condone oppressing women or homosexuals – I have said this before. Some Christians get this wrong but they are uneducated and ill-informed unfortunately and do not represent Christianity well.

        I do not “cherry-pick” from the Bible – the Bible is consistent throughout about accepting the consumption of meat and I have previously provided many references as such, and gladly more if anybody was interested.

        Once again I don’t mind to have differing opinions. I just argue continuously for understanding of a different set of world-wide morals that have educated and moral basis of beliefs – regardless of your acceptable difference of opinion.

        Regards
        Grant

      • While I appreciate your civility, you are missing a fundamental point. Animals ARE someone. Your book of stories and myths tells you they aren’t, but why should that make it so? If a book tells you something, it must be true? I guess people ARE that gullible.

        THAT right there is my biggest issue with religion. A book says so; therefore it must be true.

        No, it ISN’T true. And I think that you know that. I think you know full well when you look into an animal’s eyes, you see SOMEONE, not something.

        Not only that, but science has shown us over and over and over again that animals are sentient. They feel. They think. They have ways of knowing we can only dream of. They are other nations.

        The fact that you continue to deny this because some old book says so and “majority” or whatever, illustrates perfectly how religion and religious thought stands in the way of any real progress for humanity, and for justice.

        Please don’t insult my intelligence by telling me you don’t cherry pick your beliefs from “the” bible. That thing is chock full of slavery, rape and other horrible things. You said yourself you don’t practice animal sacrifice–why not, if “the” bible tells you to? That is cherry picking, and you clearly do it. If you don’t follow “the” bible to the letter, you are cherry picking.

        The fact that you continue to deny animals personhood does not actually MEAN anything. It does not mean they are not persons. It does not mean they are not entitled to the same basic right as any other person to not be used as property and as a resource. You ignore that right and refuse to acknowledge their personhood in much the same way slave owners deny the personhood of the people who are their property. But that does not mean the right does not exist. It does.

        Animals aren’t things. They were not “given to us by god” for us to use however we please. That is a very impoverished way of seeing other sentient beings. It’s called SPECIESISM. It is discriminating against an entire group for arbitrary reasons.

        And “because the bible says so” is pretty damn arbitrary.

        And again, religious people, in my experience, cannot be made to see reason. They latch onto “well the bible says” as if that has any meaning. It does not. I don’t believe in what “the” bible says–and again, why is your preferred version of this book of fairy tales the right one?–because I don’t believe in god, and I don’t believe that the men who wrote the various versions of it had any right to dictate morality to anyone. And most of what they say is garbage, so why read a book full of hateful garbage and silly fairy stories that have no place in today’s society?

        You have yet to provide any good answer to that.

        Have a great day.

      • Hi. I somehow missed your other longer response sorry…

        Here is where the vegan goes from civil to disrespect in an instance – I do not mock vegans and never have – but you chose to mock my faith unnecessarily. Calling it Aesop’s fables and fairy stories which has nothing to do with me eating meat – just plain disrespectfully unnecessarily nasty, with no relevance to non-veganism. Thankfully I don’t really care much – just that it puts you on the same lowish level as Gary Yourofsky. I do completely understand vegan anger towards non-vegans killing animals to eat them, that anger makes sense, but just stupid plain nastiness towards somebody’s (a sentient somebody’s) chosen and respected faith, reflects the baptism of arrogance and hatred that prevails in veganism.

        I have answered some of your queries two or three times but maybe you are not listening/reading properly? Why Christians don’t practice animal sacrifice as New Testament believers (because Jesus was the final sacrificial lamb) – explained back there …if you ignore religion 100% of country legal systems do not agree that your animals are defined as “someone” (nothing to do with the Bible) …all questions answered but you disrespectfully clearly don’t even read it.

        Further, you are clearly not self educated or researched in religion enough to hold any opinion whatsoever with regards Christianity or any other major religion – so your opinion does unfortunately not hold much weight in that regard, no matter how much you shout offensive comments towards the faith of four Billion people (and their respective God). If one of them is perhaps right, then I pity you for offending God himself.

        Any further discourse is pointless and you probably feel the same 🙂

        Sincerely, take care.
        Grant

      • You keep asking me to “respect” beliefs that you use as an excuse to needlessly kill animals. You hide behind religion as though some stories from over a thousand years ago give you any right at all to kill other sentient beings.

        I have stated again and again and again that no, an ancient book does not give you that right just because you believe some deity breathed the words in that book.

        You argue that because your book says animals are things, that makes it so.

        I have argued again and again and again that no, in fact they are NOT things, and indeed science has begun to uncover how remarkably like us they are in many ways.

        Still you go back to your book.

        So I say again, your book means nothing to anyone who does not choose to believe in the deity you have chosen to worship. It certainly does not mean that you have the right to needlessly kill billions of other sentient beings for no reason at all.

        Please do not trot out the usual “B12 tho”, and start trying to tell me all the ways in which you just cannot possibly adopt a vegan diet.

        I have been vegan for over 10 years. I am not deficient in any vitamin or mineral. I am not imbalanced. In fact, my health improved significantly once I became vegan.

        I don’t know what doctors you are talking to who think a well-planned, balanced vegan diet is not entirely healthy, but I assure you that it is not true. As Francione notes in Eat Like You Care:

        Mainstream medical authorities all over the world now recognize a vegan diet is healthy. Numerous studies internationally have shown that a vegan diet provides adequate protein. Even the USDA explicitly maintains that a vegan diet is capable of providing adequate amounts of protein.

        The extremely conservative Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, formerly the American Dietetic Association, has stated that an appropriately planned vegetarian diet, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.

        So please stop making excuses for behaviour that is immoral.

      • And in terms of likening the bible to Aesop’s fables and fairy tales–where is the fault in that? They are all books, written by people, full of stories.

        There is nothing to distinguish the bible from any other work of fiction, other than some people’s choosing to believe it’s somehow “divine”.

        As I have indicated, believing something does not make it so.

        You can believe whatever you want, as long as you don’t harm others. But the things you are choosing to believe harm others.

        I don’t understand how this is mocking anything. Fairy tales and fables are the same as the stories in the bible, or any other form of fiction.

      • “If you agree its all subjective then why do vegans like Gary Yourofsky (and 95% of other vegans) prejudice non vegans for acting on their personal beliefs?”

        I am one hundred percent fine with people acting on their own beliefs WHEN THOSE BELIEFS DON’T HARM OTHERS.

        Killing animals because a 2,000-year-old book tells you to is unacceptable. The Bible is not a justification. You can believe in god, and that Jesus was his son, and that he died to save us all etc. Those beliefs harm no one. But your belief that god put animals here for us to kill DOES harm someone–it harms the animals, and that is in no way acceptable. It is certainly not moral.

        The Bible–there is no “Bible” but rather different iterations of it, so how can you say “THE” Bible? Which one, and why is yours better?–is full of all kinds of awfulness that any decent person should ignore.

        Which leads me to, if you can cherry pick whichever parts of “The” Bible best suit you, why can’t you choose not to kill animals?

        The answer is, you can. People who use “The” Bible as a justification for their harmful beliefs (killing animals, oppressing women and homosexuals) are acting immorally. Surely your loving and forgiving God would understand why you would choose not to kill animals or oppress women or homosexuals.

        But like I said, it’s like arguing about which colour is prettier. You see “The” Bible as some sort of moral guide. I still don’t understand why, other than you are choosing to. There is really no good reason given. I live a moral life, and I don’t follow “The” Bible or any bible. Some ancient book is NOT “the” source of morality, or even “a” source of morality–and like I said, Aesop’s fables would serve equally well if we are relying on ancient stories to guide us.

        And I certainly cannot believe in any “god” that demands some of the things laid out in “The” Bible. And since your whole “morality” requires a belief in god, it means less than nothing to me.

        But thanks for keeping it civil. I won’t be responding anymore, because as I said, it’s pointless to argue beliefs.

        Have a great day!

      • There are so many things I want to say…. Umm… sorry; no order whatsover.
        The abuse that animals suffer while they are being groomed for dinner plates is not isolated. The reaso there is not a lot of good video and proof is because of the ag-gag law-“”Ag gag” is a term to describe state-level legislation aimed at punishing whistleblowers on factory farms throughout the United States. These bills have recently been sweeping the nation, and are the agricultural industry’s attempt to hide the abuses and horrific conditions animals on factory farms must endure.”
        God may have given us dominion over animals but not to cause them undue suffering. We don’t know exactly what he wanted because none of us talked to Him…. his words were translated by man and man is very subjective, self centered and inconsiderate. There are tons more to the Bible and the history that were left out for whatever reason.
        I quit eating meat 27 years ago when I was 15 yeats old. It was hard and I received no support but I couldn’t deny the truth once I learned of it.
        Supply= Demand
        I love my non vegan family and friends but that’s not to say that I’m not crushed and disappointed by them.
        Some people are affected by knowing the kinds of inhumane treatment animals are suffering for food, fashion, science, entertainment… It hurts us to know that innocent animals are sick and in pain, living miserable lives and literaly going crazy in the process because it’s the only way a sensitive, intelligent mind can cope with trauma.
        We’ve been wrong about a lot of things throughout history and all of those bad choices were accompanied by an inner knowledge that it was wrong. I can’t understand anyone who can justify the abuse subjected to innocent animals but for now I’ve convinced myself that something is wrong with them in their mind or their heart… or something because there is nothing okay about what is happening in those slaughterhouses.
        The true test of knowing if something is good or bad is how it makes you feel inside, end of story. We are equiped with a built in meter that notifies us if somethi

      • I know you are responding to Grant, not me, but I disagree with a little of what you say although overall I agree with you 🙂

        We do not need any more videos of animal torture in slaughterhouses, etc. We don’t really need to “expose” these places, as they’ve been “exposed” for years already. Lots of footage already exists of what goes on in these places, and the problem with using such footage is that it focuses on treatment.

        It doesn’t matter if the animals are beaten and kicked, or if they are stroked gently and petted before being slaughtered. How they are treated is not the issue. The issue is that we are using them at all, when we have no need to. We use them in a variety of ways, none of which are necessary. None.

        If we focus on treatment, we give the idea that using animals is okay so long as we treat them “humanely”, whatever that means. We need to focus on not using animals at all, not just shocking people with violent footage and distracting them from the issue of use.

        So while I agree with your comment in general, I don’t agree with the tone of animal welfare being our prime concern. We should seek to abolish animal use, not regulate it and use them in nicer, kinder ways.

        Thanks for commenting–I appreciate it.

    • @Joyless: Great explanation why it makes no sense for the educated to be non-vegan! You put it to the point.

      @Grant: Apparently, Gary’s verbal attack could not make you reconsider your dietary choices although they involve innocent victims. I wonder if Joyless’s respecting answer will make you do that. If not right now… do you think you will reconsidering some time in the future or is this out of question for you and why?

      • @Guest1 thanks for your comments. The Joyless Vegan has indeed explained well and I am appreciating decent intelligent and respectful dialogue for a change, without the all to common unnecessary verbal bashing!

        With regard your question I respectfully advise that I have no interest whatsoever in the vegan lifestyle, and I am an educated non-vegan with good conscience, based on my faith and belief systems according to the Bible and not just mea! You are welcome to read my open response to The Joyless Vegan which explains my reasoning (though without intensity of detail and reference, which could be provided, if requested).

      • I don’t agree with using animals for any purpose but it’s the abuse and suffering that torments me…. images and thoughts of animals that are helpless and in need of being rescued from their hell. If not for the miserable lives they’re suffering, I have to admit that it’s possible I wouldn’t feel so passionate about helping them and making a difference. As for the documentation of how they’re being treated, I have talked to many people who people who are convinced that the videos shown are only isolated cases. If it’s a matter of personal morals or health, I don’t feel it’s acceptable for me to force what I believe onto others but when their choices are supporting the needless harm and suffering to those who can’t defend themselves, I feel obligated to do what I can to stop it….. animals, children, the elderly and any others who are unable to fend for themselves, that’s who I feel the need to protect and defend. The amount of unfortunate situations are too numerous to even imagine and I know if I try, I will feel overwhelmed and hopeless so I deal with however much of it that I am able to without completely losing my mind. I’m struggling myself and I know that if I don’t take care of myself then I won’t be able to help anyone. Same goes, if I allow myself to lose my ability to cope with this life then I won’t even be around to help anything, anywhere. …………..I don’t know how you manage to remain so calm all of the time because I can’t seem to erase all those horrible images and thoughts from my mind, it overwhelms at times and I can’t begin to believe the cruel acts of people. It’s for this reason that I can understand Gary’s anger and hatred because I do feel the same way every time I read a sad post describing someone’s poor treatment of an animal… It’s those undercover videos that remind me why I’ve made the sacrifices I have. The stories make me cry until my nose is so stuffed up that I can longer breath but rather than dwell in the sadness I also get angry… so angry that I want to cause great bodily harm to the abusers… but, I don’t because I gotta believe they can’t possibly know the trauma for which they’re responsible… and as for non vegans…. I think if everyone knew, without a doubt that their meat centered diet was directly responsible for the consant suffering of so many innocent animals’ lives then I think everyone would become vegan… But without the truth being constantly shown, it’s too easy for people to make excuses, to assume it’s exaggerated claims made by a few crazy, extremists who most people can’t relate to. For me, it’s become habit that I don’t even think about most of the time but it’s those videos and coming across people like you who remind me that there is a need to say more and do more. I’m reminded that they do need help to fight for their rights, at least that can live without pain and suffering…. it breaks my heart to imagine their fear and to think that they don’t understand why they are being treated so badly and that they probably think it’s their fault. Animals are so much better than people are, they’re like children who know nothing but pure love for eveyone… free of any kind of judgement or hate…. I’m rambling… I realize this… sorry and thank you

      • Hi Susan. I am not completely sure what you are saying here but I’ll try to respond.

        First, I’d like to say that treatment is irrelevant. I get that it’s shocking and horrifying to see how some animals are treated, but treatment is NOT the issue. It would not matter if cows were petted lovingly before having their throats slit, it’s still immoral to kill a being who does not wish to die.

        “I don’t know how you manage to remain so calm all of the time because I can’t seem to erase all those horrible images and thoughts from my mind, it overwhelms at times and I can’t begin to believe the cruel acts of people.”

        Why are you subjecting yourself to what amounts to torture porn? Why are you watching videos of animals suffering if it impacts you in this way (as it would most normal people)? I don’t watch those things, because I don’t need to see that in order to understand that it’s wrong to use animals.

        “It’s for this reason that I can understand Gary’s anger and hatred because I do feel the same way every time I read a sad post describing someone’s poor treatment of an animal… It’s those undercover videos that remind me why I’ve made the sacrifices I have.”

        First, I need to say that veganism is not “sacrificing” anything. I’m not sure what “sacrifices” you are referring to, but given that we have no right to use and exploit animals in the first place, it’s not really “sacrificing” anything for a person to stop doing those things.

        Second, nothing justifies Gary Y’s anger and hatred, and if watching gory videos of animals suffering makes you hate other people, you need to STOP WATCHING. Seriously. I am guessing you were not born and raised vegan, so you were once one of the people supporting those horrible things, so you have no right now to hate others for doing what you once did. Get angry, that’s fine, but direct your anger where it belongs–to the injustice itself.

        I have noticed that watching something like slaughterhouse footage or Earthlings gets me angry. It does make me feel despair, like nothing will ever change, and it does actually make me kind of hate other people.

        So I stopped watching those things.

        We are of no use or value to animals if we spend all day staring at horrible images of suffering and then hating other people for contributing to it. That is not useful behaviour. So, you need to keep your focus on the victims: the animals. I don’t mean to sound harsh, but your post talks an awful lot about how their suffering affects YOU. None of this is about you, so why are you focusing on yourself so much?

        I keep calm because first, I don’t watch that stuff because nothing good comes of it, and second, I understand that veganism and animal rights is not about ME.

        “I think if everyone knew, without a doubt that their meat centered diet was directly responsible for the consant suffering of so many innocent animals’ lives then I think everyone would become vegan… But without the truth being constantly shown, it’s too easy for people to make excuses, to assume it’s exaggerated claims made by a few crazy, extremists who most people can’t relate to.”

        I agree in part with what you are saying here. Many people DO NOT KNOW. But I disagree that we need to show them those awful videos to get them to understand. In fact, many will recoil from it and go even deeper into cognitive dissonance. If YOU are impacted that way by that footage, others will be too and who the hell wants to live like that? You just said yourself how awful it is and how sad it makes you all the time! That isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement for a joyful vegan life!

        No, rather than shoving animal torture in people’s faces, we need to talk to them, reasonably and fairly, about why we don’t need to use animals at all, and if we don’t need to, then why are we? Help them make connections between the cute dog they’re fawning all over and the cow they’re going to eat tonight.

        We can educate people effectively without inundating them with gore. I understand that many vegans argue, “well it was that footage that made ME go vegan so therefore it will work for others.”

        Right. I mean, it might. Or, I could counter with, “what made ME go vegan was that I had intelligent, rational discussions with vegans who, while always polite, were unwavering in their commitment to advocating for veganism as a moral baseline and their logic and intelligent arguments won me over and I’ve been vegan for ten years. All without needing Gary Y to threaten me or needing to be shown horrific images that make me so emotional I can’t think straight and depress me.”

        So…I mean…there it is.

        “I’m reminded that they do need help to fight for their rights, at least that can live without pain and suffering…. it breaks my heart to imagine their fear and to think that they don’t understand why they are being treated so badly and that they probably think it’s their fault. Animals are so much better than people are, they’re like children who know nothing but pure love for eveyone… free of any kind of judgement or hate…. I’m rambling… I realize this… sorry and thank you”

        I am glad you are reminded to help fight for their rights. But we need to do better than “without pain and suffering”. We need to aim for “without exploitation of any kind”.

        I don’t claim to know what animals think or feel. I imagine it’s misery, and terror, and sadness, and loneliness. They are forced to feel those things for no reason, and that’s not okay, so I speak out loudly. If I alienate others, so be it. If they aren’t ready to face reality, so be it. I cannot control that. Literally ALL I can control is what I put out there. And it’s best for animals if I stay calm and reasonable, and do the best I can to get humans to rethink their actions and attitudes toward animals. THAT is how we advocate.

        So please, for the sake of the animals you are advocating for and for your own sanity, STOP watching those videos that disturb you so much. Go to a sanctuary, or a shelter, and connect with those animals. Humans are capable of doing a lot of good, so go revel in the positive things and leave that awful footage behind.

        Take care of yourself 🙂 The animals need you.

  108. Well, I think most people deserve it… I’m kinda misanthrope but I think some kind of disease spread by a meat would be great 😉 I mean we’re raping this planet at the moment? How long can it go? 50-60 years? People deserve worst.

  109. Also, Grant, this quote of yours “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16) – so it says about itself” presupposes a belief in a god.

    I don’t believe in any god; therefore, “the” bible in all its iterations are not divine, because there is no god to have “breathed” them. They can only be “divine” if you choose to believe they are. And in making that choice, you are also making the choice to cause harm to sentient beings for no reason.

    And you ask others to respect that.

    No. I will never, ever respect that.

  110. Well TJV I sincerely understand you don’t believe in God. You should really, however, qualify your statement “the bible in all its literations are not divine” with the pre supposition “I believe that…” because you are not in a position of authority to declare that the Bible is not true or God does not exist – though your personal convictions are completely your right, your personal opinion does not make you an authority on the subject. As we both keep agreeing, belief in God and the Bible is our irreconcilable difference, which doesn’t bother me really, it’s completely your choice (and probably the only thing we agree on!).

    Only last response I need to say that we Christians (including other Abrahamic religions) do in fact have a very good reason for harming of livestock – that reason being for necessary consumption to ensure we have correct healthy diet for our brains and protein (which means conservative consumption of meat as indulgence with meat creates even more health issues than abstinence) – this is what we believe our God intended. Any unnecessary harm to animals for any other reason is agreed 100% (ie. fashion/product testing/hunting as a sport/etc). Unfortunately many “religious” people are not conscious enough about the unnecessarily harmful products and actions – I acknowledge that completely (to a certain extent me included, and something I have gained more awareness from this interaction thank you).

    Thanks again for the interaction much appreciated.

    • You say this: “Only last response I need to say that we Christians (including other Abrahamic religions) do in fact have a very good reason for harming of livestock – that reason being for necessary consumption to ensure we have correct healthy diet for our brains and protein (which means conservative consumption of meat as indulgence with meat creates even more health issues than abstinence) – this is what we believe our God intended. Any unnecessary harm to animals for any other reason is agreed 100% (ie. fashion/product testing/hunting as a sport/etc).”

      I have said this a dozen times but will say it again. IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR HUMAN BEINGS TO EAT ANIMALS. Period. End of story.

      It is not needed for “health”. While someone may be able to stay healthy despite eating animal products (although increasingly science is showing us that eating animal products is not healthy), adopting a well-planned, balanced vegan diet DOES NOT MAKE A PERSON LESS HEALTHY.

      So your argument is not, in any way, valid.

      So, again, you are killing animals without need and are no different than the hunters and people who kill for sport that you say are wrong. You are doing exactly what you say is wrong for others to do.

      Big surprise–hypocrisy in religion. Sorry, not trying to be rude or offensive, but it is hypocrisy.

      • Respectfully, surely by now we do not need to cover the basics of possible subclinical protein malnutrition and not enough dietary sulphur. The famous vitamin B12 deficiency which has an effect on DNA synthesis, blood formation and reproductive health, consequences that bring impaired brain function, megalopblastic anemia and fatigue, neurological and psychiatric disorders. People who eat meat don’t have to find substitutes to try and counter any imbalances. Some creator designed as as such. Uneducated isolated tribes people felt the natural urge somewhere along the line to hunt and kill animals for food. Our body is imbalances without supplementing lost vitamins and proteins that come from meat. The complications around eating meat are mainly related to those that eat excessive amounts of red meat, which in my research is far worse health risk than being vegan, nevertheless there are definite advantages to a vegetarian/vegan diet the pros and cons from a health point of view, all point towards large portions of fruit and vegetables, inclusive of fish and chicken, and a very conservative amount of red meat – which I try to maintain myself. Doctors all have differing opinions but without exception theyof will agree that vegan/vegetarian diet is not entirely healthy, despite some advantages. But I am certain you have done the same research.

      • “Respectfully, surely by now we do not need to cover the basics of possible subclinical protein malnutrition and not enough dietary sulphur.”

        Apparently we DO need to cover the basics, because you seem to think a well-planned, balanced vegan diet is somehow unhealthy, which in this day and age is utterly laughable.

        Protein malnutrition. LOL. Most Westerners get far too much protein. And I’m not sure if you know this scientific fact, but proteins are made up of amino acids, and amino acids are found in all living things including plants. So yeah, eating a wide variety of fruits, vegetables, nuts, lentils and legumes will certainly provide adequate protein.

        Now, I am not denying that some people who may call themselves “vegans” eat atrocious diets loaded with processed foods, sugars, etc and may be quite unhealthy. However, the exact same thing could be said about non-vegans so…..yeah. No “gotcha” there for the vegans. NIce try though.

        Thanks for mansplaining to me about B12! I’ve been vegan for ten years but golly gosh I had no idea about B12 so thanks for that revelation.

        What you don’t address in your comment is that even those who eat meat should supplement with B12, particularly as they age.

        But I am sure you did your research right?

        “Our body is imbalances without supplementing lost vitamins and proteins that come from meat” LOL again! Please tell me what is in meat that is not in plants? I mean, besides cholesterol.

        And I can tell you one very important thing that is not in meat that is in plants: fibre.

        Again, amino acids make proteins. There are no magical things found in meat that we can’t get from plants. Vegan ten years here (coming up to 11 in March) and yeah, no deficiencies.

        Your argument that humans must eat meat ignores completely the fact that many of us have been living for years without it and are wonderfully healthy.

        Not a very good argument.

        If a person can be just as healthy on a vegan diet as they can on a non-vegan diet, which has been proven and accepted by the medical community, then what excuse is there to continue the non-vegan diet?

        None that aren’t utterly selfish.

        But again, arguing with folks who deny facts and make up others is just an exercise in futility, as this conversation clearly shows. I’m not trying to be rude or anything but I mean…..come on. This is silly.

  111. By sacrifices I mean that I spend hours at the store in search of animal friendly products and I go without certain things because they were made in china or had been made by a company that experiments on animals. It was my desire to help animals that prompted me to test out of high school early and start college. I worked at school and then in the work force, giving up a social life and friends. I understand that it’s not a sacrifice to choose vegan choices now but when I first switched it was very hard to give up the foods that I loved so much. It’s knowing that animals suffered that helped me to do it. I understand and agree with a lot of what you say but regardless, without seeing the abuse, I probably wouldn’t have cared so much. People are selfish and self centered, assuming they will be convinced to go vegan based on logic and reasoning would be nice but most people don’t care. Most people think there are more important things in the world to devote their time. I began with animals and it spread to children and others who are also abused and that’s what my motivation is. I do not choose veganism for my health but I will use that arguement if that’s what is needed to reach some people. And no, I don’t watch those videos any more but I still can’t erase past images from my mind nor can I rid myself of remembering or imagining all that is going wrong every where. Maybe I’m a mental case, that’s not what this about. I do what I do to make myself feel better. You’re a much better person than I am because it’s not enough to know that animals are being used for me. There are people being used and they are just as important as animals. I don’t feel that I can persuade the masses to completely change but I feel that compromises along the way will provide more animals to be free. We have come a long way in the last 25 years but nothing happened over night. I think I’m being realistic by working towards snall victories along the way.
    I respect you and applaud you for all that you do and I wish there were more people like you

    • I don’t think you are a mental case, nor do I think I am a “better person” than you 🙂

      You can try to argue the health angle, but given that people really can be just as healthy on a diet consisting of some animal products as they can on a vegan diet, I think it’s not a strong argument at all. The best we can say is that a properly executed vegan diet will not make a person less healthy.

      “there are people being used and they are just as important as animals”. Right. Never said otherwise. But the idea that we can’t do things to help both humans AND animals is not valid. As soon as people try to argue that we should worry about people first, I point out that we can worry about people while not eating animals or wearing leather or going to zoos, etc. And I also point out that if, in fact, one actually does care about people as much as nonvegans claim to, then one should stop consuming animal products because of the harm done to humans in terms of the suffering of slaughterhouse workers, the fact that it leads to people in other countries starving, etc.

      I dunno. I care about people too. But I can care about animals AND people, and I can care about both without it involving horrendous abuse to get me to care.

      Thanks for your kind words.

      • Joyless Vegan – sorry but one cannot be just as healthy eating animals as living plant based/vegan lifestyle. Those are lies spread by many who make a profit when people are sick & uneducated. All one has to do is look at Dr. Klaper, Dr. Campell & Dr. Greger to name a few for the facts that refute one can be healthy eating animals. Please do some research because misinformation is detrimental to society and so is eating animals… to one health, the planet and sentient beings who want to to live just as you & I do.

      • I’ve done research, and yes, many people including doctors say a person can be perfectly healthy while eating animal products. Yes they can yes they can yes they can. I am a vegan too, and it would be great to tell everyone it’s unhealthy to eat animal products but it is simply NOT TRUE.

        Please DO NOT come here and condescend to me and tell me to “do my research” because I HAVE done it. And people live perfectly healthful lives consuming animal products. Obviously it’s not “healthy” to consume too much, but you can still eat some and be the picture of health.

        The only argument that vegans should focus on is ethics. You won’t win the health argument.

        Also, please don’t condescend to me like I haven’t been vegan for 11 fucking years. I’m not spreading misinformation–the most we can accurately say about eating a plant based diet is that you won’t be any LESS healthy than someone who eats animals.

        “sentient beings who want to to live just as you & I do.”–FFS. I KNOW THIS. Jesus. Maybe read the rest of my blog before shitting on me from up on your high horse.

  112. This dude is honestly evil. I called him out on Facebook for his comment about a fisher who got a spear stuck through his face, in which he said that he liked seeing people like him get hurt or killed. His response to me was this: and I hope your mom’s mouth & cunt are used for gang rapes, while you watch. and then someone shoves a cuticle remover IN your penis hole.

    Fuck off scumbag. You keep standing up for murderers. I will defend the victims.

    you are a disgusting piece of shit and am embarrassment to the human race.

    and anytime you wanna show me how tough tough guys really are, we can in the parking lot of the Royal Oak, MI, post office on Sunday at noon any fucking time. Then I will treat you like humans treat animals, like fish-killers treat fish, and then MAYBE you’ll understand what it’s like to be treated like nothing, like your life doesn’t matter, which it doesn’t!

    Here’s to your mom’s cunt Cunt,

    G”. And vegans admire this scumbag? He actually later said he saw my wife get her “mouth and cunt” in a gang rape video. This dude is demented. This is all 100% true.

    • ……..I don’t even know what to say to that. You did NOT deserve that. I just….I don’t even know how to respond. I am so sorry that happened to you. He is evil. That is messed up. He does NOT represent vegans–he represents psychopaths. Ugh.

    • Sounds indeed like pretty violent speech. This was a private conversation response, right? I would be interested in the following context questions:

      1) Did you advocate fishing (as sports and/or as means to get human food)? Do you do it yourself?

      2) From a purely philosophical standpoint and from the viewpoint of a bystander: which of these two actions is more cruel: a) a human who receives a response email formulated in really, really violent speech or b) a fish which is needlessly “fished” by a human and then killed? (Which of the two life-forms will recover quickly from the respective action? Which of the two actions seem more psychopathic? Or is this maybe not a valid comparison to make and why not?)

      • You know what? It doesn’t matter if he advocated fishing as sport. People do that, because it’s legal and socially accepted to fish. Going off on someone like Gary Y did and making comments about this person’s mother’s and wife’s vajayjays is just not fucking cool, okay? You are basically saying that this guy brought it upon himself to be abused like that.

        There was no need for such a violent reaction from King Gary–the dude was just pointing out that celebrating a person getting a spear through the face is a dick thing to do, and he’s RIGHT.

        Please don’t victim blame here–and YES I KNOW ANIMALS ARE VICTIMS but Jesus H Christ can we not treat others a little better than making sexist, misogynist comments? Like, really? You cannot be in any way defending what Gary said. I mean, you can’t.

        Your “purely philosophical standpoint” sounds remarkably like victim blaming. Yes, we all know the animals suffer more than some dude who had horrible, misogynist comments made about his mom and wife. Still doesn’t excuse the absolute BULLSHIT King Gary threw this guy’s way.

        Do you really think this guy is now going to become vegan, or even think about it? Fuck, if someone said stuff like that to me, I’d never even consider their perspective. Ever. Because who the fuck wants to be like King Gary? No one in their right goddamned mind, that’s who.

        So you can try to establish “context” but I’ll save you the trouble. Here’s the context: King Gary is an abusive asshole. There. All done. Thanks for stopping by.

      • “You are basically saying that this guy brought it upon himself to be abused like that.”

        Actually, no. I tried not to blame anybody with my statement. My intention was to get an answer to the question of comparing the two actions regardless of who said or committed them.

        “the dude was just pointing out that celebrating a person getting a spear through the face is a dick thing to do, and he’s RIGHT.”

        I agree with you. But I myself could not refrain some gloating if an unknown guy – who e.g. physically attacks my sister – gets seriously hurt in the process (e.g. stabs himself with this own knife). Would at least a little cursing at the attacker be allowed – while calling for an ambulance? 😉 (I know, some would say to turn the other cheek, a.k.a. put my other sister forward. But for me, this just feels wrong.)

        “You cannot be in any way defending what Gary said. I mean, you can’t.”

        Yes. I mean I can’t.

        “Your “purely philosophical standpoint” sounds remarkably like victim blaming. […] Still doesn’t excuse the absolute BULLSHIT King Gary threw this guy’s way.”

        I don’t excuse the guy. But I have the feeling that it IS possible to tell pseudo-victims and real victims apart. I know of an old respected lady who thinks of herself as a victim when she is “forced” watch a gay couple kiss in public. Sorry, lady, I would think, YOU are not the victim here if you only knew the reality of gays. She only maybe is the victim of her outdated upbringing. Should I say such things aloud?

        “Do you really think this guy is now going to become vegan, or even think about it?”

        No, not at all. But this wasn’t the point of my response. 🙂 (if this guy isn’t already vegan, he maybe will never be, who knows; if he now thinks every vegan is an asshole then he should talk to others and not just to Gary Y)

        “King Gary is an abusive asshole.”

        Excuse me, if you projected my response to Gary Y. I wanted to raise a cool analysis. I realize now, that this blog post is specifically about Gary Y and it is probably not the right place for such a rather abstract topic. Do you know of good philosophy forums where such questions could be discussed? In any case, thanks for providing a trigger for interesting thoughts. Bye.

      • “You are basically saying that this guy brought it upon himself to be abused like that.”

        Actually, no. I tried not to blame anybody with my statement. My intention was to get an answer to the question of comparing the two actions regardless of who said or committed them.

        The thing is, though, StevO, those questions ARE implying Aaron asked to be victimized.

        “the dude was just pointing out that celebrating a person getting a spear through the face is a dick thing to do, and he’s RIGHT.”

        I agree with you. But I myself could not refrain some gloating if an unknown guy – who e.g. physically attacks my sister – gets seriously hurt in the process (e.g. stabs himself with this own knife). Would at least a little cursing at the attacker be allowed – while calling for an ambulance? 😉 (I know, some would say to turn the other cheek, a.k.a. put my other sister forward. But for me, this just feels wrong.)

        StevO, you cannot possibly be calling what Gary Y said to Aaron “gloating”. Words mean things, and “gloating” is NOT the right word here. Gary Y was not “gloating”.

        “You cannot be in any way defending what Gary said. I mean, you can’t.”

        Yes. I mean I can’t.

        Glad to hear it, StevO, because it sounds remarkably like that is exactly what you are doing–defending Gary Y.

        “Your “purely philosophical standpoint” sounds remarkably like victim blaming. […] Still doesn’t excuse the absolute BULLSHIT King Gary threw this guy’s way.”

        I don’t excuse the guy. But I have the feeling that it IS possible to tell pseudo-victims and real victims apart. I know of an old respected lady who thinks of herself as a victim when she is “forced” watch a gay couple kiss in public. Sorry, lady, I would think, YOU are not the victim here if you only knew the reality of gays. She only maybe is the victim of her outdated upbringing. Should I say such things aloud?

        FFS, StevO–“pseudovictim”? Seriously? Aaron did not deserve to be talked to that way, and has every right to be pissed off about it. No matter how someone is victimized, we can always sit there and say, “well, you know, some people are victimized far more than you were in this case, so you should just not be upset.” You know what? Fuck that. No. Aaron has every right to be pissed, as he WAS victimized. And comparing what Aaron went through to gay people kissing and somehow “offending” some dickhead bigot is really…..wow, man, apples and oranges. Yeah, Aaron can turn off Facebook or whatever, but that sounds remarkably like justifying bullying. Or anything, really. Oh, you got raped? Well you should just not go out at night. Really StevO? Really?

        “Do you really think this guy is now going to become vegan, or even think about it?”

        No, not at all. But this wasn’t the point of my response. 🙂 (if this guy isn’t already vegan, he maybe will never be, who knows; if he now thinks every vegan is an asshole then he should talk to others and not just to Gary Y)

        Yeah, I am also of the mind that non-vegans shouldn’t get upset about how vegans speak to them–usually. But this thing with Gary Y and Aaron goes faaaar beyond that and you know it. This isn’t an ‘in your face” approach that presents raw, naked facts and challenges ingrained beliefs thereby making the non-vegan uncomfortable and defensive and saying the vegan was mean to them so they’ll never go vegan. That is just bullshit. But what Gary Y did was sociopathic and could actually SCARE people, literally, away from veganism.

        “King Gary is an abusive asshole.”

        Excuse me, if you projected my response to Gary Y. I wanted to raise a cool analysis. I realize now, that this blog post is specifically about Gary Y and it is probably not the right place for such a rather abstract topic. Do you know of good philosophy forums where such questions could be discussed? In any case, thanks for providing a trigger for interesting thoughts. Bye.

        Oh, you wanted to raise a “cool analysis” did you? Well, StevO, you failed. That was a spectacularly shitty “analysis” that actually turned into basically blaming Aaron for the shittiness Gary Y dosed him with. And please don’t condescend and say “this isn’t the right place for such a rather abstract topic”, like I’m just too dumb to grasp your cool analysis. I grasp it. It’s terrible. I don’t think a phiolosophy forum is gonna help, StevO, but good luck finding one.

  113. I’m sorry you feel that way about Gary Yourofsky because he is one of the few who has the courage and tenacity to say it like it is and express his frustrations as thousands of people are feeling. I definitely share his frustration and anger as the blatant ignorance lies and lack of empathy from people is all around us so yes he and everyone else has a right to be angry when one learns the truth. Hearing folks say “I love animals” then in the next sentence talk about eating them or justifying animal abuse is something I’ll never get used to or not be upset about. His comments about folks suffering the same fate is from years of people trying to justify the abuse, torture, anal electrocution, rape, slaughter etc of innocent beings just to eat and wear them so yes I agree that if all those folks supporting these atrocities had it happen to them they may not be so quick to support/justify it. Not sure why you can’t see his point of view and actually made a post slamming him when he has done more for animals than most organizations. The only reason he gets in so much hot water is because he has the balls to say what most people feel but afraid to vocalize. I don’t wish death on anyone per say but if all the people in the world who hurt children, animals, women, elderly, sick, weak etc knew the punishment would be the same crime do you really think they’d still commit the crime? If those who cut off dogs hands and feet while still alive had the same done to them do you think they’d do it? If those who fished had a hook put in their face, eye or mouth do you think they’d still fish? If those who supported the dairy industry had their babies stolen from them and murdered so folks could eat/war them do you think they’d continue to support the dairy industry. Only an insane person could justify what happens to innocent sentient beings so to knock Gary for being their voice and expression of his justified anger/frustration isn’t really supporting the animals. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but youre either for or against animal abuse… period. Gary loves animals with all his heart and risks his life and freedom for them which I’m sure you can’t say the same so you may feel the way you do but a whole lot of us think he’s a great person and will continue to support him… myself included. ✌

    • Yeah, yeah, yeah–as I’ve already said, great he converted you, there are other ways to convert people than being a violent asshole, he is a scary man, stop promoting him.

      Good for you. Keep supporting a misogynist, racist, violent man. Go you.

  114. No, you need to go away. You’re missing the entire point. Beyond ignorant

    • ……..says the jackass who shows up on my blog, doesn’t read a single word I say, and then without actually refuting my argument leaves an ignorant comment. Get lost loser.

      • Hi JV,
        I really would be interested in watching a debate with you and Gary Yourofsky where you both discuss the matter at hand face to face. All this repeated insulting against the commentators with a different view gets boring. Could an interview or discussion this be setup somehow? If it could, would you agree to take part in it? 🙂

      • “All this repeated insulting against the commentators with a different view gets boring.” So, I am not sure what your meaning is here, but I believe you are saying I insult others who don’t share my views.

        You are quite wrong. I don’t mind if other people have “different views” from mine. What I DO mind, as I have stated repeatedly and am so very sorry if that “bored” you, is that Gary Y is violent, misogynist and racist. Having those “views” is not okay. Saying the shit he has said is not okay.

        Got that? Good.

        I have no desire to go face-to-face with an angry, violent man who wishes rape and torture on others. He is incapable of keeping his temper, and as a woman, I am extremely put off by violent men. I hope you can understand that. He is not capable of calm discourse. He yells, screams, throws chairs (yes, he has admitted to this) and swears, and his thoughts and wishes are violent and frightening to many.

        He does not scare me, but I am also not going to put myself in a situation where a vicious, angry and violent person can stand there and call me vile names, insult me, potentially hurl things at me and tell me I deserve to be raped and/or tortured and describe his creative torture-porn thoughts in vivid, graphic detail as he has in his writing.

        No thanks. I mean, like sooooo tempting but yeah, gonna have to pass.

        Barf.

        Have a great day though.

  115. Excellent article.

  116. I love Gary and support him!

    • …….you support a misogynist, sexist, racist, violent, angry white man?

      Good for you bro–thanks for bothering to a) take the time to read why that’s not a good thing, and b) leave absolutely no counter-argument to anything I am saying.

  117. Excuse me. I see that you refer to some interviews to make your point but I don’t see any links to those interviews. And please don’t take this the wrong way, I am not saying that you’re lying, I am just asking for some proof, that way I can make my own decision.

    For what it’s worth I do support Gary Yourofsky, in fact he and his philosophy had been a big influence on me changing my lifestyle and so far I haven’t seen a single one interview or conference of his in which he claims or verbalizes any violent wish for anyone. That’s why I got surprised when I read your post.

    If you could help me with some links, that would be great.

    Thank you.

    • you should go through the comments on this blog post because there’s lots of links, both to things Gary Y himself has said and also to what others say about him in terms of how deeply disturbing he is, and they link to his writing/videos/etc as well.

      But since you want me to do that work for you, here you go.

      We’ll start with this link to some relatively tame rhetoric in praise of violence: https://www.facebook.com/notes/%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%9F-%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A1/empathy-education-and-violence-a-time-for-everything-by-gary-yourofsky/556125857762554/

      Then we will move to this word-for-word quote from his website:
      from gary yourofsky website http://www.adaptt.org/animalrights.html#
      Rapists, murderers and child molesters should be vivisected, executed and dissected, allowing researchers the opportunity to gather useful information that would actually benefit human health for a change. I see nothing wrong with capital punishment because if you willfully destroy someone else’s life, then you automatically relinquish yours.
      For the pacifists who now wish to condemn me for supporting capital punishment, let me expose your insanity a little more. When you fight for the lives of people on Death Row, you condemn even more innocent animals to a murderous demise. What do you think convicts in prison eat? Carrots and tofu? Or the dead, dismembered bodies of animals? And if you wish to use the trite argument about executing an innocent person one percent of the time, let me know when society condemns executing 150 billion INNOCENT animals in the meat, dairy and egg industries 100 percent of the time! As for the lame “eye-for-an-eye-only-makes-the whole world blind” comment, when was the last time there was a blind mass murderer? I’ll take a blind compassionate world/person over a seeing evil one any day of the week. There’s NO nobility in protecting victimizers. Murderers, rapists and child molesters don’t need your voice. The victims are the ONLY ones who need help.
      Have pacifists become so in love with their ideals that they’ve forgotten who the real practitioners of violence are? I have harmed no one while meat, dairy, and egg-eaters pay people to RAPE animals to impregnate them, pay people to steal newborn babies from their mothers, and pay people to kill the babies, and the mothers. I have harmed no one while people who wear fur pay people to rape foxes via anal electrocution, rape chinchillas via vaginal electrocution, and break the necks of minks, so that they can drape themselves in skin-coats. But hey, I’m a reasonable guy who’s willing to change his position on violence, and make a deal with all the pacifists in the “movement.” When the rapists stop raping the animals, then I’ll stop “wishing” or “hoping” that rapists get raped. And let me clarify something else. I think rape is purely evil. I don’t support it. Don’t be stupid. Rape is the most evil act of violence that can ever be committed, which is why I wish it happens to evil people. I hope Nazis, KKK members, and domestic abusers get raped, too. I certainly don’t wish for bags of lollipops and money to fall from the sky and gently land in their laps. I honestly think every rapist should have his cock and balls sliced off with a cuticle-remover while he’s fully conscious. Then, he should be forced to eat his severed genitals after they’ve been dipped in puke. After he takes the last bite, I personally want to be there to shove two 12-inch metal skewers through each eyeball, and then drag him into a room filled with 10,000 flies so he can be eaten alive. Go rent the movie Law Abiding Citizen and watch Gerard Butler’s character carry out some poetic justice on the man who raped his wife and daughter. It warms my heart to no end.
      What’s more, anyone who condemns me for my rape comments is a pure hypocrite anyway, because when child molesters are convicted and imprisoned, EVERYONE says something like this: “I can’t wait until Bubba gets a hold of him in prison.” And don’t you dare deny it! What do you think Bubba’s gonna do when their paths cross? Counsel him about his troubled childhood, or forcibly penetrate (rape) his asshole? The problem with pacifists is that they don’t fully understand evil because they refuse to look at oppressive situations from the victim’s point of view—unless, of course, the victim is a fur-wearing ogress who gets raped in some fantasy retaliatory payback prose of mine. The animals who are raped and murdered see no difference between someone who violates them for their flesh and skin, or someone who does it to a human. If only the pacifists could understand this.

      Then you can check out what others say about him, and they include links to his garbage:

      http://www.realitymaps.com/2015/05-garyyourofsky.html
      http://veganfeministnetwork.com/yourofsky_rape/
      http://bitesizevegan.com/ethics-and-morality/does-violence-have-a-place-in-animal-liberation-gary-yourofsky/
      http://veganfeministnetwork.com/hero_worship/

      He also writes some disturbing things about Palestinians–I an try to find the link, although I think it’s referenced here in the comments.

      Then you can continue on doing your OWN research into what a violent man Gary Y is.

      Thanks and have a great day.

  118. What an idiotic statement.
    Gary is the person who can shake up all those sleeping minds.
    We’ve been lost in lies for too long.
    And silly words of average vegan like “eating animals is bad, don’t do it” are simply not working for a person who ate meat for 30 years for example and was quite sure that nothing’s wrong with it. They just don’t believe, people have to be aware of horrible things that they’ve been doing all that time.
    PEOPLE HAVE TO BE SHOCKED and they should feel ashamed for their actions, they should cry while looking at all those cruelty they’ve done. And when the audience leave the room there should be no doubts on which path to choose.
    Angriness is necessary nowdays in the world of ignorant, sometimes angry and indifferent people. We should talk on the same language to reach them.
    And vegans like you are just not capable of affecting people’s life so you are useless. Keep talking about how badly you want animals to be free, while “angry” Gary turn another thousand of meateaters to vegans and make A REAL DIFFERENCE.

    • …..you write that and have the nerve to say I’m idiotic? Okay then. As I have said already, no one needed to treat me the way Gary Y treats others to get me to go vegan. I know right? No rape threats? How did I even?

      It’s this attitude–Gary Y’s and yours–that is the problem with the “animal rights” movement. It’s about egos and shock value.

      We don’t need to “shock” people. We need to educate them. And we don’t have to be assholes to do that.

      But you do you. I really, honestly, deeply, truly do not care about you, in any way, or your approach to animal rights. You are part of the problem and I just literally cannot be bothered with you.

  119. Gary Yourofsky is the Man!!!!! And the world desperately needs many more like him. Hats off to him. I will always promote him. He is the personification of “ACT” in Activism. Gob Bless him!

    • ……..uh huh. If you want to support a whiny, violent man-baby, you do you. I give literally zero shits. It would be great if you’d think critically about who you choose to support and why, but Gary Y folks are known for not being able to think their way out of a paper bag. Go you.

      • What the heck is this?

        I’m just hearing constant rhetoric about a man who cares compassionately about animals. On and on……..Every time someone has an opinion that differs from yours. You spout off. This is inarticulate vile nonsense. I suppose you voted for Trump too, right?

      • I don’t get it, why should I not promote him? his videos are what made people go vegan, his page adappt tells everything. He isn’t doing anything, banning him from countries or whatever vegan activism only hinders vegan movement. He is also one of the contributors towards spreading veganism in Israel and some other countries. His family and some of his friend don’t follow his idea and any non-vegan can tell him bullshit to his face, do you think he should stay silent? I don’t think so. Just because he told somebody something personally like harsh words does not mean his action overall is bad. The action or attitude he shows to some people are only to some few who are bothering him. I have not seen any strong case of him going violent and there are reason behind everything he does, he is not stupid. Nobody believes he is a leader or a hero or a saviour but his video does make some people go vegan so I say why not. There are many good videos and you have to take the good message, the positive outweighs the negative, ignore the drama.

      • “What the heck is this?”

        This is a personal blog, written by a person who has been vegan for eleven years. It reflects my thoughts and feelings on various things and does not require your approval.

        “I’m just hearing constant rhetoric about a man who cares compassionately about animals.”

        First, “cares compassionately” is redundant. Second, you are hearing a lot of rhetoric about him because he is a highly controversial public figure who uses violent speech and actions to get his point across. Many people in the vegan community have talked about how he’s not great for the animal rights movement.

        “On and on….Every time someone has an opinion that differs from yours”. No. People can have different opinions. I have zero issues with differing “opinions” but we aren’t talking about “opinions” here. I am critiquing the antics of a man who comes across as extremely unstable and violent, who for some reason is the “face” of a movement that is about peace. I am not “spouting off”–I am offering intelligent commentary on someone who claims to have compassion but demonstrates none toward his fellow humans. It’s not “nonsense”–it’s called reason. Rationality. Intelligence. We have a right and an obligation to criticize the behaviours of folks like Gary Y. If his behaviour doesn’t stand up to reasoned debate, maybe he should change it. I’ve been very articulate–it’s not my problem if you can’t wrap your mind around what I am saying. You just leap to his defence because you like his tactics. THAT is unreasoned nonsense.

        No, I didn’t vote for Trump, as I don’t live in the United States, but thanks for assuming everyone is American.

      • I’m sorry if you don’t understand my English, please bear with me… There are many different kinds of people, his action was appropriate to a person who can spout bullshit to his face, most of them being non vegan, imagine after you explained most of the things about veganism, an ignorant person would say that I will die for non veg would you still lecture him/her or say sarcastically something to defend your arguments or be angry because you are serious or stay silent? Sometimes I stay cool and when things get serious I become angry this shows that I’m being serious so atleast people will realise that they are doing something wrong. They can think whatever they like – like me being triggered, butthurt but I will not tolerate non-vegans mockery/justification/bullshit. If for some reason you can’t avoid the workplace or some people we have to show that we can’t adjust to norms, like inciting anger by name calling non vegan dishes. someone eating non vegan on the same table etc. Gary Yourofsky has taught good values, there are similar people like for eg, Vegan Gains he also does get angry but people have become vegan through his message, not by his action.

      • “I’m sorry if you don’t understand my English, please bear with me… There are many different kinds of people, his action was appropriate to a person who can spout bullshit to his face, most of them being non vegan, imagine after you explained most of the things about veganism, an ignorant person would say that I will die for non veg would you still lecture him/her or say sarcastically something to defend your arguments or be angry because you are serious or stay silent?”
        You have created a false dichotomy here. You are saying that we either scream and yell and swear at people and be awful to them in order to sway them to our way of thinking, or we just stay silent. Those aren’t the only two options. Most people will not agree with the vegan message. There are reasons for that, and yes, it’s frustrating, but that does not give you, or anyone, including Gary Y, the right to speak to people in a violent manner and say terrible things to them. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Here is a rule I try really hard to follow, even when someone is making me angry and frustrated–If I would not want someone to speak to me in a certain way, then I should not be speaking to someone else in that way. So, I don’t like it when people yell at me and talk to me like I am stupid when I understand what they are saying but disagree, with good, solid reasons. So, if I am speaking with someone, and they have really good reasons for disagreeing with me, I don’t scream and yell and speak violently to them. And if their reasons aren’t good? Then talk about that.
        Poke holes in their theory, show them how they are wrong. And if they are a jerk to you–don’t sink to their level. Okay? Can you understand that? I treat others the way I want to be treated.
        “Sometimes I stay cool and when things get serious I become angry this shows that I’m being serious so atleast people will realise that they are doing something wrong.”
        No. Getting angry does not just entitle you to treat someone badly or say horrid things to them. As a woman, I hear shitty things from men all the time. Does it make me angry? Yes. Do I start ranting and screaming and swearing because I’m angry? No, because that would make me an asshole. I find it really interesting how many men continue to defend behaving poorly toward others just because they’re angry. Maybe they, and Gary Y, should learn some emotional control.
        ” They can think whatever they like – like me being triggered, butthurt but I will not tolerate non-vegans mockery/justification/bullshit.”
        So, getting violently angry and swearing at them….what? Makes everything better? Makes them take you seriously? Here’s a newsflash for you–it does NOT make them take you seriously. It just makes them laugh.
        ” If for some reason you can’t avoid the workplace or some people we have to show that we can’t adjust to norms, like inciting anger by name calling non vegan dishes. someone eating non vegan on the same table etc. Gary Yourofsky has taught good values, there are similar people like for eg, Vegan Gains he also does get angry but people have become vegan through his message, not by his action.”
        I’m sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say here. All I know is Gary Y does NOT “teach good values”.

      • “I don’t get it, why should I not promote him?”
        Try reading what I say here.
        ” his videos are what made people go vegan, his page adappt tells everything.”
        As I have already said here, we don’t need angry white men screaming at us and celebrating the deaths of hunters to get us to go vegan. What got me to go vegan was education from intelligent vegans. I guess that’s not radical enough for some folks, but it is most effective. No one told me I deserved to be raped for being non-vegan, and I don’t imagine anyone said that to Gary Y either, but he sure does think that now he’s vegan he can say things like that to non-vegans.

        “He isn’t doing anything, banning him from countries or whatever vegan activism only hinders vegan movement.”
        I disagree. I think what hinders the vegan movement is non-vegans seeing someone like Gary Y and being put off by his violent and angry rhetoric and attitude.
        ” He is also one of the contributors towards spreading veganism in Israel and some other countries.” There are many others who do this, with better results. I know screaming and yelling at people and cheering when non-vegans are killed seems super fun and sexy, but it’s just awful.
        ” His family and some of his friend don’t follow his idea and any non-vegan can tell him bullshit to his face, do you think he should stay silent?”
        And given the way he talks, his non-vegan family and friends deserve to be raped and killed. But of course he won’t say that about non-vegans HE knows and cares about–he just says that about my family, and yours. Any non-vegans he doesn’t know personally, I guess.
        ” I don’t think so.”
        Good for you, man.
        ” Just because he told somebody something personally like harsh words does not mean his action overall is bad.”
        Yes, it does. Telling non-vegans they deserve to be raped and/or killed, and celebrating online when a hunter is killed are really, really shitty things to do, and those things reveal a lot about Gary Y’s character. I am sorry if you cannot see that.
        ” The action or attitude he shows to some people are only to some few who are bothering him.”
        So if you are bothering me right now, it’s okay for me to tell you that you are an asshole and I hope you and your family die in some violent manner?
        No? I didn’t think so. Stop making excuses for Gary Y’s crappy behaviour, okay? Please?
        ” I have not seen any strong case of him going violent”
        And I haven’t seen the North Pole. That doesn’t mean it’s not real.
        ” and there are reason behind everything he does,”
        Really? So because he’s upset that non-vegans are harming animals, that gives him the right to call people names, say they and their families deserve to be raped and/or killed, and celebrate online whenever there’s a news story about a hunter dying? SMH.
        ” he is not stupid.”
        Never said he was. What I said was, he’s a whiny, egotistical man-baby. And I stand by that.
        ” Nobody believes he is a leader or a hero or a saviour”
        LOL, okay, bro you have obviously never met any of his loyal followers!
        ” but his video does make some people go vegan”
        …so the ends justify the means? No. You know what else would make people go vegan? Murdering anyone who isn’t. That would make them go vegan in a hurry, but that doesn’t make it right.
        ” so I say why not.”
        You are commenting on an entire blog post in which I explain why not.
        “There are many good videos”
        Yes, by other people than Gary Y.
        ” and you have to take the good message,”
        Many people will be put off the good message by Gary Y’s violent attitude. That is my point. And the kind of folks who are drawn to his violent attitude and act just like him are not people I want anywhere near me.
        ” the positive outweighs the negative,”
        No, it doesn’t. That is what I’m saying.
        ” ignore the drama.”
        This, from someone who left a long-winded comment on my blog just to let me know his opinion, even knowing I wouldn’t agree or be swayed. Sounds like you rather enjoy drama.

      • Hi. This blog has interested me and I have had meaningful dialogue with The Joyful Vegan already in this thread. I hope you don’t mind me commenting from a non-vegan perspective. Gary Yourofsky is an embarrassment to vegans. I have engaged peacefully with him before online and been told by him firsr hand that he wishes I suffer and die a slow death from cancer. He formally advised a 16 year old girl to run away from home and reject her parents because they eat meat at the dinner table with her. He told me that my own vegan brother should no longer love me because I am a murderer. I am sure you are all sick of the all to common argument from non-vegans that without vitamin B12 and proteins in meat it possibly affects the brain …well we just say look at “Gary Y” as a perfectwell example. He doesn’t represent vegans well. Angry passion can convert a few …have you ever considered what that same passion could achieve if packaged in peace? Ghandi and Mandela achieved far more than genocidal deranged idiots. Vegans exist because of a passion for peaceful existence with all sentient beings, Gary does not have that same agenda. When I told him he wouldn’t talk to a cow the way he is talking to me he deleted the whole message thread and never responeed to anything thereafter. He is a crazy idiot. With his incredible passion packaged in peacefulness he could achieve so much more for vegans. He has further put me off any vegan interest. Saved a few maybe yes, but probably turned away far more than he has saved.

      • Hi Grant,
        I read your posts. You seem capable of reflecting things. What I still don’t understand is the rational reasons that can be used to justify enslaving animals for food or other fun purposes in rich western societies. No religion _mandates_ meat, dairy or egg eating.

      • He hasn’t any, but he is quite correct about Gary Y being an embarrassment to vegans.

      • Hi Nino,
        As TJV will correctly remind me quite often, it is very difficult to conclude any discussion on this topic with a Christian, or another serious believer of any faith – I acknowledge that. The reason being that we have an instruction manual called the Bible, and we can’t change it. So if we have any intense discussion with somebody who does not accept the Bible as divine truth, then we don’t have any common ground, and we will always go around in circles. I have studied and searched and researched and prayed and discovered and realised that Jesus is the truth. It’s my journey. However, I doesn’t mean I agree with every single thing in the Bible, does that make me wrong? … or is God wrong? Am I greater than God to tell him his mistakes and how to correct this world?
        I don’t like that as a married man I am restricted to one sexual partner for the rest of my life, but I do understand that having affairs will cause jealousy and hurt to my wife and cause bitterness anger and divorce, messed up kids, and probably end up in a lonely funeral for me one day when I die – God has higher ways than our ways. Some of them we don’t entirely understand – like eating livestock animals. They taste nice and the provide proteins, but it harms a sentient being, which we have dominion over according to Bible instruction. I can try and explain it but my explanation will most likely be flawed.
        The Bible places animals under our dominion as humans. The Bible refers to many animals sacrifices for our sins (even Jesus is referred as the Lamb of God going to slaughter!). The Bible has many references to eating meat and fish in the New and Old Testament. The New Testament has two specific references that are applicable to vegans, and the essence of the one is that a believer (Christian) who abstain from meat is considered weaker, but not to be looked down upon (discriminated against). The other scripture angers vegans so I choose not to discuss it unnecessarily.
        The Bible refers to the Promised Land, as the land of milk and honey. The Bible says when you ask for an egg (to eat) God will not give you a scorpion (to eat). There are many references to drinking of milk and even one relating to cheese (Proberbs 27:27).
        So for me it is all because God says in the Bible, but you don’t believe in the Bible so you will probably come back with something like “how can a loving God allow sentient creatures to be harmed?” My reply is I don’t really know either! Ask God. But humans do need proteins and vitaminB12 and fresh live meat doesn’t need to be refrigerated while it is alivea.. is my highly flawed answer
        Vegans think that non vegans sit around scoffing bacon and large steaks all day …actually health conscious non-vegans love vegetables as much as vegans, only we don’t need to substitute anything further as we enjoy chicken, fish and smallI portions of red meat.
        We all know over indulgence of red meat is dangerous, in as much as a vegetarian diet has deficiencies that need to be supplemented to maintain a healthy balance.
        I choose health, I choose the Bible, I choose small portions of meat). Take care.

      • Thanks for taking your time for this detailed answer, Grant. I find that very insightful!

        >> it is very difficult to conclude any discussion on this topic with a Christian, or another serious believer of any faith

        Funnily, I strongly disagree here because there are many examples of religious people of any religion who see no conflict in minimizing animal suffering and following their belief. If the word “serious” is used in the sense of “bigot” I agree. 😉

        >> The reason being that we have an instruction manual called the Bible, and we can’t change it.

        I read your reasoning behind this statement in other posts. In former times exactly this was used to justify Christian crusade and other atrocities. How can you be so sure that in future times Christian people won’t tell the same about the current animal abuse?

        “Odious ideas are not entitled to hide from criticism behind the human shield of their believers’ feelings.” (https://stallman.org/sayings.html)

        >> then we don’t have any common ground

        I think we indeed have a very strong common ground: logical thinking and compassion.

        >> Am I greater than God to tell him his mistakes and how to correct this world?

        How would telling, that human dominion over animals as we do it now makes them suffer horribly, make God’s words wrong? Doesn’t human dominion also include the option to leave the animals in peace?

        >> as a married man I am restricted to one sexual partner for the rest of my life

        I like this example. The reasons you present are perfectly logical. Any human – religious or not – who has respect for his/her life partner would do the same. (Except when both partners agree that sexual affairs are ok but in my experience this is very rare.)

        >> God has higher ways than our ways. … like eating livestock animals.

        As said, where does God write that he wants you by all means to eat all the animals? You say he just says it is ok (because you have dominion). But this makes you free also not to enslave animals. And this even does not contradict the biblical saying. Or does it?

        >> The Bible has many references to eating meat and fish in the New and Old Testament.

        Does the bible also say that if some believer does not eat animal products that this person will be excluded from the believing community?

        >> the essence of the one is that a believer (Christian) who abstain from meat is considered weaker, but not to be looked down upon (discriminated against)

        Ah, that’s interesting. So you fear that you are considered weaker by your fellow believers if you follow the path of your brother? (I assume not since your main concern seem to be health reasons)

        >> The Bible refers to the Promised Land, as the land of milk and honey.

        When the Bible was written nobody could have ever imagined our industrial animal enslavement process. With this in mind that does not sound like a promised land for animals. Maybe “milk and honey” does not mean cow milk or bee honey. Maybe this was meant to be oat milk and agave sirup but in former times nobody would have understood those terms? 🙂

        >> even one relating to cheese

        Which probably doesn’t say: “You must all eat cheese at least once in your life or you will be doomed” 🙂 I also see here that it is possible for a good believer to stop (or minimize) eating cheese even if this person was raised to eat much of it.

        >> But humans do need proteins and vitaminB12

        There is no word of medical terms in the Bible, or is it? Is your brother dying of protein and B12 deficiency? Probably not. I don’t know the situation where you live in but in our country nobody has to enslave and use animals to get protein and B12. It is a matter of pure choice here.

      • What a thoughtful comment. Thank you for adding to the conversation!

      • Joyless Vegan I will argue with someone by being emotionally correct, I will be angry but I will not show that so that others may laugh at me it defeats the whole purpose of me spreading a serious message. I will not throw insults at someone or ridicule someone. What people have said here might be isolated cases or I might have not known about Gary Y being abusive, but I disagree with you on Gary Y spreading veganism message with hatred and violence look how other videos of his are… He just explains people without cursing or yelling at them. He is calm. Still, I need to know a few things. I want to know the reason why would he say those things? He is just voicing his opinion or giving suggestion to not live life like an apologetic vegan. I know it doesn’t work on some like newcomers but that is how we should live. We should avoid sitting with meat eaters on the same table. It is mostly disrespecting us and animals. I think what Grant said might be true but there must be reasons for his behaviour like he is just showing his anger that people don’t seem to care or listen to a word he says so he throws insults at them may be? so he is showing his true behaviour other like me would just argue or ignore that person. It is the non-vegans who come up with excuses and don’t understand the essence of what he says so he uses rape and murder as an example because he is trying to make someone realise the suffering by putting that person in place of animal victims. He became a misanthrope because humans have caused him so much suffering, and they are also killing animals.

      • “Joyless Vegan I will argue with someone by being emotionally correct, I will be angry but I will not show that so that others may laugh at me it defeats the whole purpose of me spreading a serious message.”
        This makes sense, so why don’t you think Gary Y should do the same as you?

        “I will not throw insults at someone or ridicule someone.”
        But you support Gary Y in doing so.

        ” What people have said here might be isolated cases or I might have not known about Gary Y being abusive, but I disagree with you on Gary Y spreading veganism message with hatred and violence look how other videos of his are… He just explains people without cursing or yelling at them. He is calm.”
        Oh, dear, no he isn’t. He is not calm, at all. But people believe what they want to believe, I guess.

        ” Still, I need to know a few things. I want to know the reason why would he say those things?”
        How would I know? Because he has the emotional control of a toddler? Because he is arrogant and thinks it’s okay? Who knows. Ask him.

        “He is just voicing his opinion or giving suggestion to not live life like an apologetic vegan.”
        No, he’s not just voicing his opinion. We can be unapologetic vegans without being angry and violent.

        “I know it doesn’t work on some like newcomers but that is how we should live. We should avoid sitting with meat eaters on the same table.”
        This is great in theory but given that 99% of the human population is not vegan….good luck with that.

        “It is mostly disrespecting us and animals. I think what Grant said might be true but there must be reasons for his behaviour like he is just showing his anger that people don’t seem to care or listen to a word he says so he throws insults at them may be?”
        So, we are making excuses for bad behaviour? Why? Because he’s vegan? Not good enough.

        “so he is showing his true behaviour other like me would just argue or ignore that person. It is the non-vegans who come up with excuses and don’t understand the essence of what he says so he uses rape and murder as an example because he is trying to make someone realise the suffering by putting that person in place of animal victims.”
        NO. That is NOT what he is doing. I get talking about animal suffering in terms of rape and murder, and that is NOT what he’s doing. He is saying non-vegans DESERVE TO BE RAPED AND KILLED.

        “He became a misanthrope because humans have caused him so much suffering, and they are also killing animals.”
        No one has caused HIM anything. It’s not about him, and that is what neither he nor any of his loyal cult worshippers understand. We don’t advocate for ourselves–we advocate for animals. It’s not about US and our egos–it’s about animals. Gary Y, however, is completely about HIS ego, HIS feelings, HIS beliefs, HIS anger, HIS violence. NOT OKAY.

      • Uh …No, he is not about his ego. I don’t think you have watched any of his videos properly, just pay attention.

  120. It takes people like Gary to get through to other persons who are not aware and unsensitive, non passionate. People attention span needs to be elongated in order to capture the content of what needs to get across. Gary was completely compassionate and quite tired of the nonchalant attitude of meat eaters. He did his best and I am thankful there is somebody like him who gave his time in every way to educate the ignorants. Criticism without action and correction does not get anywhere. Open your mind and make necessary changes because open mind can be progressive.

    • ……..so you are saying people need rape threats to go vegan?

      If you believe that, we have nothing more to say to each other and I’d thank you to keep your ignorant comments to yourself.

      • > ……..so you are saying people need rape threats to go vegan?

        This summary is not what Deedee was saying. You are twisting words here.

      • No, in fact I’m not “twisting words”. People keep insisting that Gary Y’s approach is this incredible, amazing thing that people NEED in order to go vegan. His approach is to say that non-vegans deserve violence–including rape–and death. I have watched the speeches, I have read the essays, and I even saw his little “victory” speech where he declared himself innocent of all the charges regarding his claims that non-vegans deserve to be raped.

        When people say that Gary Y’s approach is “necessary” to get people to go vegan, they are, literally, saying that people need rape threats to go vegan because that IS Gary Y’s approach. So, no, I am not twisting words here. Nice try though.

      • “I’m Kylie, and I’m an abolitionist vegan. I’m not always right, nor do I think I’m always right” –> Many of your angry and partially disrespecting replies to people who have a different view tell another story. Sorry. 🙂

      • LOL. Nope. My “angry and partially disrespecting replies” are directed to comments that are equally disrespecting. If people wish to offer intelligent commentary, then that is most certainly welcomed. However, I get a lot of comments that start with a personal insult, offer nothing of any value, then end with another insult.

        I’ve said repeatedly that if someone has something to say to effectively counter anything I say, great. But that hasn’t been the case. So thanks for offering your comment–I’m not sure why you felt compelled to leave it, but have a great day.

      • I think one reason why you get so many negative comments is that your words appear to address other vegans and not just yourself. And even urge them to change their own view, e.g.:

        – “Vegans, please stop […]” –> direct address to all vegans and not only a personal opinion about the person in question
        – “he is quite correct about Gary Y being an embarrassment to vegans.” –> statement that generalizes over all vegans; but quite obviously, many vegans are not embarrassed. So this statement either does not hold the reality of the many comments or all these people are not allowed to have a different view.

        Being patronized of what to think about someone just bothers people.

      • And I have explained why vegans do/should reject Gary Y. You don’t agree? Then don’t.

        They can certainly have a different view. However, at the very least, they should be able to defend that view other than “that’s my opinion and you have to respect it”.

        So far, I have yet to see anyone, vegan or otherwise, offer any rational reason to defend a person who says non-vegans deserve to be raped or have other violence done to them. If you want to defend Gary Y, at least do so intelligently. I have yet to see that.

        And yes, “Vegans, stop promoting Gary Yourofsky” is the title of this blog because I’d hope that vegans would see what kind of person they are making the “face” of this movement and realize what a truly misguided idea that is.

        Thanks for stopping by.

  121. ^^^^Yes. This right here…Milan nails the rub. Condescension works both ways…